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Has anyone found thier 2nd build to not be as good as the 1st one? As you learned your craft, did you let your guard down and not take the time/care you should have on #2?

I am prepairing to start #2 and wonder if I can duplicate or do better than I did on #1. Was it beginners luck? The first one is sort of a plain-jane without a lot of frills...but the exectution of the workmanship looks very good. #2 will be simular but with added frills like inlays and more intricate bindings ect. So it will be a little more difficult from a cosmetic standpoint I guess.

Anyone not as happy with #2 or #3 etc?

Thanks,
Joe

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Joe

There are aspects of my #2 and #3 that didn't turn out as good as #1, but there are many more things that did turn out better.

#4 and #5 are miles ahead of the first 3. #6 and #7 are shaping up to be better still.

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On all of your builds for years to come, As Rod noted you will make new errors and resolve old errors this is the process of learning the craft. You will not build an issue free guitar till you have made every error there is to make at least once and some times twice.

You know there is an old adage that states that the difference between a an apprentice and a journeyman is that and apprentice is constantly learning new mistakes to make and a journeyman is constantly learning new ways to avoid previously made mistakes.

This is one of my favorite tips to give. Never see your mistakes as failures. Always see them as opportunities to learn. And in my opinion one of the best ways to keep this attitude in track is to keep build notes on each build. Not just specs but how each process went, what issues were encountered, how you address them and how the measures you took to address the issues worked out. Even if you do not regularly review your notes, the fact that you wrote them down will in grain them into the though process for that give task and thereby make you more intuitive in your decision process.

That is awesome advice, Michael. Which is probably why I haven't done it yet!

My first turned out very decently without too many hickups. Number two, although much better in every aspect, was 10 times harder to build. Now that I knew more about it, I was constantly second guessing myself, and it seems that every conceivable problem that could have surfaced, did. I think you'll find a consensus that the second is always trouble...

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

I'm having more problems with #2 too, but it's because I'm trying new things. The more basic processes have gone much more smoothly, and quickly. It's the detail things, wheat, V-Joint, rosette tiles, that are holding me up.

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Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Ok I'll step into it and probably be the bad guy. I don't understand why after one build or even a few, folks get into adding things to their builds. It is like they see something on the forum that is cool and on second build go for that, when hardly have the basics of building down. Make bunches of mistakes on first, and then go 2nd and say make arm rest, bracing changes, inlays, binding schemes when struggle with just the basics. Why not make a bunch so have a lot of the main stuff figured out and go from there? Making changes on the first builds and then when they turn out not so good wonder why, is it because didn't have the basics down in the first place? I am not saying everyone who does this isn't successful, but think that is more of a rarity than a rule. I noted to boss once I was going to do this or that and main thing getting my sound down and changing things up to get more into that along with fit and finish and design (this was 3 years ago or so, so this paraphrasing as don't remember full conversation. His kind reply, "you haven't built enough after (I think at time 6 or 7 guitars + for another shop) to know what your sound is or where want to go or what to do." further commenting in way only way Bill can be gentle, "learn what your doing now, get that down, then change things, and do those slowly and one thing at a time so know what the change has or hasn't done" "Learn what the instrument is supposed to do, before changing what you probably don't know anyway" That is Bill and he taught me a lesson, which he continues to do and this is just one of many. He is always encouraging, teaching and there for us, but same time didn't want me to get ahead of myself. Why be in a hurry to get this and that done? Most making this as a living didn't get there in a day, or go with all sorts of changing guitar to guitar particularly in the first few. Some get there faster and can do more in fewer guitars than others, that is just life and way it is. But not many if any can get there and start stuff like that in the first few. Another one I was getting mad and frustrated at a problem and not moving forward, his response "your not good enough to get mad, you are good enough to continue to learn more of the basics to get you good enough to move on" Sometimes a slap in the face and ego is a great teacher, and boss not afraid to do that and I have thick skin which is a must.

Not that I disagree at all stand but to answer your first question. Some of us thought I do not fall in the new builder category strive on challenge and actively seek it is a personality trait.

Good points Stan, sage advise.

My first 4 were all the same, identical in woods, trim, shape, size. The only differences were the nut width on one, scale length on one and the finish media. Tweeking the bracing between them to get a sound that I liked was the main focus.

The construction of a guitar is really not that hard at all. What's hard is understanding what changes effect the sound or tone of the guitar.

90% of the construction is just fine woodworking, but it's that other 10% that really makes it a guitar and that is the hard part.

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Michael I wasn't talking about your post at all. You have been there, done that.
I am talking at what I read here a bunch, when there is a post about a build and pic's shown and this is the cool thread of the day and guys with just one, two or whatever. but very few builds and maybe never a woodworker much see it and decide their next (#'s 2-6) are going for that. They then are frustrated that all the new stuff they did or trying not working out, and then multiple post on how to do this, when need to get the basics down as much as possible first. They can't even hardly bind with plastic and then want to go second build with wood and ab 45 style work, or change the bracing a bunch to get a noted change in voice, when hardly know what to do to get the basic sound/voice and whatever that is, is to be. I just see a bunch of folks wanting to get the cart before the horse. This kind of goes with previous threads about when to hang out shingle, or not getting the recongnition thought should at first shows, when a pro not a pro, when a "luthier" or not. It isn't a point can't get there, as more a point it takes time, builds, mistakes etc to get there, so learn the what doing on the basics then move on. I spent most of my life as a cop, Marine and investigator. A person would come into the academy and graduate, but that didn't mean put them on the street the next day and say go for it. It was 6 months more hell with a jerk like me getting them to learn the more advanced stuff to enhance their academy stuff. Some wanted to go to homicide after their first few weeks on the streets. Maybe they could do it, but probably not well and end up getting butt kicked. Or in Marine Corps where I was Forced Recon, didn't come straight out of basic and go there, took time, and work.

Stan I knew and did not disagree at all with what your wrote

So what would you call the basics?
wood or plastic binding, why not take your time your 1st and learn how to bend the wood.
as far as neck attachment goes, dovetail, mortise tenon, or butt joint?
One thing i can understand that a new builder should stick to is the bracing plan and things that affect that.
but if you build your first neck with a scarf joint and your second with a v-joint, now thats just woodworking

Frank

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Frank

I found my second to be much more difficult to build, not because my first was a kit and my second was not, but because I had learned so much since starting the first and I didn't want to build the second by the book. I had to make many more decisions such as how thick should the top be? How stiff the back? And I didn't want just numbers, but rather wanted to learn how to arrive at some of those answers myself. Sort of like the adage about giving a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach him to fish.... I wanted to learn to fish. And like with so many other pursuits, the more you learn, the more you learn how much you don't know. When I built the first, I had no idea what I didn't know. On the second, the light went on. Or off, depending on how you look at it!

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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I assume he was talking about me. V-joint, wheat, etc...... I was trying wheat the first time, and it didn't work out then either, so I settled for half of wheat, or, rope. It didn't look bad, but I felt like I compromised a bit on that. I figured I would try to conquer the items that frustrated me the first time. I also tried making a rosette tile with solid pieces cut to dimension, but failed miserably at that too. I'm probably going to have to do another layup of .5mm veneer strips, and remake my design, as I don't have enough to finish the two guitars I'm working on. I figure the V-joint is just something I ought to know how to do, if I'm going to build guitars in the Romanillos style. I also did my first Scarf joint on my #3, also in process. The first was from a band-saw cut one piece neck. Not saying I'm right, just saying it is my right to do what I wish, and to learn and fail at my own pace. I also chose not to start with a kit for the same reason. I could have had a guitar in less than half the time, if I had done the kit thing, but I would not have learned all of the woodworking skills I have picked up in the process, and I (not any one else) would not have felt that I did it myself. Not saying I don't appreciate all the help and tips I got here at OLF, because I would have had a different, and, probably, less successful first build, but, as it is, I have the knowledge that I cut, glued, formed, fitted and finished every piece of wood on that guitar, and that gives me satisfaction.

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Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Wasn't talking about any one person or post in particular, just commenting on what I have seen in a change in this forum over time and since the beginning. This sure isn't the first thread like this over the years I have been here and that has been since a few days the beginning. I don't particularly care what one person or another does or does not do. If doing a bunch of varied things in very few builds or whatever works for them fine. Doubt it will, and good luck with that. Your shop, your show, your instruments. I just have I guess a weird view of how to get there, and get better, and taking time to do it.


What I call the basics is putting together a box, make a neck, attach it and have it ready to play and not have bunches of mistakes in the basic things, binding, fretting, I don't know like gluing the top and backs to the rims, install lining without it fall apart, bowl sanding you know, what makes a guitar from nice wall piece that looks like a guitar or whatever instrument one is building.


I guess best thing is for me not to comment furhter on this particular thread as it isn't happy talk.

Sorry, Stan! I didn't mean for that to sound like an attack, and I didn't think your comment was an attack, and, I don't necessarily disagree with what you said. It was just that I mentioned trying a lot of different stuff that was causing me problems on my current effort. I agree that the basics are important. Those things didn't seem to be the things that gave me a problem on my first. I am currently learning not to hurry the process on my second. I'm still, so far, not having problems with basic process, and I'm still going slow, but have a better feel for things I can do while other things are drying. Before, everything was done in order. Nothing ahead of anything else. And, since I'm building classicals, I can't build a box and attach a neck. It has to all come together at one time, and be glued up in the solera from the top to the back with the neck integrated into the process. Not any harder, just different.

I really am sorry if I insulted you. It was not the intention of my post. It was, more of, an, embarrassed, explanation of why I was trying things on my second build, instead of just building another one exactly the same as the first. They will be of the same design, but, hopefully, will have slightly different accoutrements.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Hmmm...

I have written several responces and decided not to post them. I can't believe this turned into a sour topic. To some builders, it will take them a long time to build with confidence and consistancy. To others they can build guitars right out of the gate without issue. I am not sure we can generalize on any of the comments...except that you learn from your mistakes.

If you don't try to move forward and learn something new on each guitar, you will always be a follower and never a leader. I personally don't want to build the same guitar over and over again. I want to challange myself each time I plan a build. Hey...but that's just my personality. I want to move forward and not sideways or backwards. I also am not selling my work unless someone offers. So I don't want to have 10 of the same guitars laying around just so I could prove I can build the same guitar more than once.

J

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Joe

I like that line Joe. You can apply that to pretty much every area of life

Now just to stir the pot a bit more,

There are of course two sides to building guitars, the basic construction and the fundamentals for sound.

Basic construction and aesthetics is one aspect which I don't see a problem with people pushing themselves forward on each successive guitar. Heck, none of it effects the tone or sound of the guitar (or any more than 1-2% at most) AFAIK.

Of course we want to make sure that the thing is going to stay together, that's not what you're talking about I think but I think Stan is making sure that the thing will stay together "getting the basics down" and that it will play right (fret slots cut accurately, bridge placement, neck angle, set up).

Now building for a specific sound, that is probably one of the biggest learning curves to building guitars (or any instrument for that matter). What effects the sound of a guitar? What does changing the body style do? What does changing the depth of the body do? What happens if I open or close the X-brace angle? What happens if I choose higher or lower finger braces or tone bars? What happens if I change the number or location of the lower "tone" bars? What does using a different type of wood for the back, sides, top do? How about neck material, bridge material, thickness of bridge plate, scale of the instrument, number of strings?

To me, those are the things that take the time and number of guitars to learn the most. We can read material and watch video's on voicing a guitar top, but there are so many aspects which affect the sound of the guitar that it would take a significant amount of time in order for anyone to be able to determine just what the guitar will sound like before it's even built. That is what separates the pro's from the beginners (like me).

Now, I have been able to obtain a sound that I like based on some basic designs, but I'd certainly have a problem if someone were to come to me and say "I'd like you to build me a guitar that has strong fundamentals, all the way up the fretboard. Not to punchy but I want good sustain. I like to finger pick but also like to attack with a flat pick every now and than. Also, Like most, I want strong bass with good mids and clear trebles. I want a spruce top with rosewood back and sides, the rest we'll work out later." I'm wondering where I would start with those basic requests. I'm sure it gets more complicated than that too (I'm just a hack player so most guitars sound good to me).

Than throw in the mix the action of the guitar and better make sure there are no buzzes at all!

The construction learning curve especially for someone who has some woodworking skill isn't the issue (in my mind) it's building for a particular sound, style of player etc....

My response is just meant to open the door a bit more. Maybe everyone here has thought about all this and I'm just wasting my time, but maybe there are those who think building a good guitar is all about tight miters and perfect neck joints with a glossy finish. There's two sides of the coin and I'm just trying to show the other side.

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Rod said: "My response is just meant to open the door a bit more. Maybe everyone here has thought about all this and I'm just wasting my time, but maybe there are those who think building a good guitar is all about tight miters and perfect neck joints with a glossy finish. There's two sides of the coin and I'm just trying to show the other side."


Yes. I think you have very valid points. Right now, I can build a guitar with tight miters and nice neck joints etc. I strung it up in the white and so far it would seem the guitar sounds very nice too. The point is: How will I know what a guitar will sound like with a different bracing scheme if I don't try to build one and compare it to my earlier guitars? Until I know what each one sounds like (when I build it and not someone else), I have nothing to compare it to. You are absolutely right about one thing: If some one came to me and said I want XYZ wood and XYZ tone...I would not have enough expierence to ensure it would sound like what he/she expects. That takes time and builds.

One thing we keep forgeting tho, is an individual's own expierence. For example: I have a pretty extensive background in guitars. From research I have done on Gretsch guitars, to a (at one time) extensive collection of vintage guitars, to owning a guitar store selling 100's of guitars a year. What that has given me personally, is the expierence to know that mahogany back and sides will "in general" warm up a guitars tone. That adding maple tops to a guitar tend to brighten it up, but will add more articulation. That cedar on a flat top, will flatter the top end making it smooth and creamy...with some lost of articulation as the price. Mahogany and Maple tend to work very well together to keep notes warm while staying articulate. It will even give some hints of overtones not there when using one or the other on its own. Now these are general statements, but they can also help me as I choose material for instruments based on my past expierence.

I am not quite sure what to expect out of #2, because I want to do more than I did on #1. On #1, I made all the wood parts myself including the fretboard. So on #2, for me to do more...means I want to add some detail that makes it a real stunner! I want to try this...all the time considering what affect it may or may not have on tone and volume. I also want to try parallel bracing instead of X bracing. By doing this, I will now have both major style of bracings represented in my collection of hand made instruments. That will give me the expierence I need to choose when to use either format on future builds.

Thanks for the conversation,
Joe

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Joe

Waddy no problem and had not taken any offence at all. I know different kinds of builds take different kind of techniques. I again didn't mean my ideas as a rule, just way I evolved in building. Heck I have not had the guts or quality to do a show, though guys that doing this less than me have and have done well I guess.

Want to make a different guitar evey build and not same thing over, go for it, may make it as a pro if want to go there. More probably will get a request from a customer on stuff and not having basic guitar building and tech fully understood will mess up and there goes the budding career before hardly got started. I am talking now after just a very few instruments. Pro shops as noted on other threads are different than hobby. Don't have the option of taking all the time want to learn a process. Can't mess up several times while learning a process. Hobby builder can build what want and how want and no pressure. Can make mistakes and only loss is what they have in it. Pro make big mistake, not get product out etc. will not make it and then is again a hobby builder. Make to many changes in bracing schemes and other things, how do you know which change it was that changed the voice good or bad. That is all saying little changes can make big changes so better know what is doing what.

Guess it depends on what and where one wants to go with building. Go to fast though doubt will make it for long in pro world. I don't know most here anymore or what aspirations are so have to look at my thoughts from your own prespective of what you want to do. Remember if going pro and asking questions on things even non building customers have some knowledge of may not provide potential customer with much confidence and they will go somewhere else. They also have a way of remembering names.

Heck like Bill told me I am not good enough to get mad with folks who go different than me. There are a lots of ways to do things in this craft and lot of way not to do, better know which one is which. I can't get upset with others as I have my way of getting to where going, just hate to see folks get juiced up and fire in the belly and then frustrated when things go south when just would have taken a little more time.