Official Luthiers Forum!

Right now, Gibson is fighting the actions of the gov in the court of public opinion. This happens all the time in these types of things. Again, anything we read right now should be taken with a grain of salt and we will just have to wait and see if the gov files any charges, and then to see how it plays out in court.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Following the Lacey act is like walking a tight rope on a power line . The Lacey act is not just about wood it also covers any flora or fauna . It has been on the books and means that if what you buy in or import breaks a law of another country , you are breaking the law here . I am all for saving the planet but the wording and the execution of the rules is not consistent .

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I, for one, wish for bigger government on the OLF, with more regulations. This distasteful thread should have been moderated long ago. There is enough nonsense and illiterate babbling in the real world that being confronted to it on a luthier forum is a turn-off. Really.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Laurent, I do understand your point of view, but to some degree this impacts us all and some healthy conversation about the subject would seem to be in order. Where we go bad is in expressing tone of anti-government, or anti-anything and not backing up our thoughts with actions such as Andy Birko has done.

Personally, I want to stay informed about these things...and I'm sure you do as well.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

The folks who excuse these laws, or the interpretation of them, as okay because it's an attempt to do the right thing are missing the bigger picture - In the majority of these cases, the government does not have to prove you are guilty - you have to prove you are innocent. If you lack provenance back to the day the tree was cut - you are guilty. Tea party or not, the basis of criminal law in this country up until recently has been innocent until proven guilty. If you don't see this as a huge overreach by government, be aware that most any of us on this forum, even you guys who think this is okay, could be found guilty of any number of already existing laws because most laws are poorly enough written that they can be interpreted to cast a much wider net than they do now. What most people don't understand is the loss of freedom in any society is rarely by a sudden government coup, it's done in small increments such that most people consider it nothing but an inconvenience, usually for someone else. Sort of like the frogs in the water that's slowly heating to a boil.

And ask yourself something else: What's the end result of these laws? In this brave new world are we really going to be better off for these new rules and/or interpretations of existing rules? Or are more good and innocent people and businesses going to be hurt than criminals caught?

No politics here - the majority of laws written in any democracy are likely well-intentioned, but when the laws end up doing more harm than good, it's time for the lawmakers to grow up, take their time and look to ALL unintended consequences they can, and ways that law enforcement can possibly abuse and overreach their authority. I have run the gamut on personal political ideology, and I personally dislike conflict and shy away from it most of the time, simply keep my mouth shut and vote my beliefs. But I have to say I find our incremental loss of personal freedoms and loss of the right to innocence far more distasteful than any political discourse, here or anywhere else.

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Damon Wack
https://www.facebook.com/LindamonGuitars

These type of things will eventually affect us all. The emotional responses come from people because they do see how people or companies are ruined. Just because the discussion is about the government doesn't make it all political.

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Wisdom is justified by her children

I agree for the most part. I think when people come on and start slamming other's ideologies that becomes what I think Laurent is describing as distasteful. Right wing vs Left wing, Tea Party vs Socialists etc. etc.... this isn't about that stuff, but is about our industry seeing some seemingly radical changes that will affect us in the short and long terms. The reality is that the U.S. government has involved itself in the affairs of this industry due to the Lacey act changes, and it is going to have lasting consequences. That's not uncommon, just something new to us. How we react to it is going to be a telltale of our character and our values. Unavoidable, but mutual respect for each other has to be maintained.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

A friend of mine works for Martin in their wood buying division. I saw him at the ASIA show and he was telling us about his recent trip to Africa where he was observing a wood harvesting operation to insure that the materials were legally harvested and thus legal for Martin to import into the US. This is obviously the proper "due diligence" that has kept Martin out of the headlines (unlike Gibson) in this regard.

It's significant I think that none of the many other outfits that import and sell wood have had federal agents descend upon them.

So when this goes to court it will comes down to who has interpreted "Indian Law" correctly. What is a sawn log?? To an FWS officer perhaps its a tapered stick. That same stick to the Indian Government could be a completed guitar component to be used for a fretboard. I reckon FWS is going to find themselves in a lot of strife with this. It is hard to imagine that Gibson, having already had a huge stack of wood ceased that is the subject of pending court action, would not have jumped through hoops to have there paperwork in order. If this all comes down to a semi load of 'un-slotted' fingerboards being deemed be FWS to be "sawn logs" then just watch and see what happens.

If Gibson's lawyers have paperwork from the Indian Government stating that "under their law", the consignment sent to Gibson had met all of "their" requirement for what constitutes a "Finished Product", then the FWS case will be sunk. FWS may firmly believe they can successfully argue the Gibson consignment is no more than tapered wood that still bears saw marks, and therefore cannot qualify the term "Finished Product". But you can bet Gibson's lawyers will table documents from the Indian Government stating that a fingerboard 'Blank' has in itself, been manufactured to completion because to slot and inlay that same wood product, would effectively reduce its marketability as a guitar component by restricting its usefulness to only one specific scale length of instrument, and this would 'reduce' the products value reversing the intent of their legislation. I think that any magistrate considering that evidence would have a hard time supporting the FWS case and an FWS come back of "Oh bugga, really? So those slotty thingamees you do, you mean they 'don't' actually all go in the same place for every bloody guitar?? Well whoooda thunk that!!! Sorry for the misunderstanding Mr Gibson, here, you can have ur wood back now let just forget the whole thing".......... just won't cut it.

What will happen if that is in fact the case, is that FWS will find themselves paying out an awful lot of money to Gibson Guitars. Impact to legitimate business operations is one thing, but any amount awarded for damages to the Gibson brand will be astronomical. Add to that all legals etc, and this has the potential to add up to a HUGE figure. In fact it will probably be so big that it is likely hobble the Lacey Act so it become something FWS will be very reluctant to enforce on any big company once this is done and dusted. The lesson the US Government will learn from all this is the same one they should have thought about when they drafted this stupid legislation, and that is that FWS officers cannot possibly be versed in every single international trade law. Asking them to make interpretations of those laws in a way that can have a commercial impact upon those parties that 'are' versed in those international laws that affect 'their own consignments', is a very, very, risky thing to do indeed.

Cheers

Kim

I read this column in the Toronto Sun this morning. http://www.torontosun.com/2011/08/26/we ... of-control and thought that it might be timely. I know that this thread has already taken quite a few twists, so i hope that I don't piss off too many with another one.
Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Excellent article, Alex! Thank you for the link.

Seems to me that allowing something to enter the country then busting someone for useing it is just a form of intrapment. And if someone is to be at fault, it should be the very ones not protecting our boarders in the first place.

I think you are right Kim. Not only will Gibson likely prevail in court, but the fact that a US government agency is enforcing an Indian labor law that off shores more American jobs is a PR disaster. So, who will FWS focus on when they are too afraid to go after companies that can afford a legal team? Seems like the boutique builder is about to become an endangered species as well.

'In Europe, the trade-off between individual freedom and reliance on the state has perilously advanced its cultural decay.
Moreover, the self-correcting method of a free society in Europe is not as robust as in America.
Europe’s future, consequently, looks ominous and is an amber alert for Canada.'

What does he mean? Does he think it's gone downhill since Adolf and uncle Joe lost control?

Are you suggesting socialism is the only alternative to Adolf and uncle Joe? It's most certainly not what led to them being removed?

Read my post again. I'm responding to his article and the fact that he thinks there has been a cultural (whatever that means) decline in Europe.
It's junk.

Right, and I'm saying that I'm pretty certain that Hitler and Stalin were not the points of reference the author had in mind.

Wait! Wait! This guy in the column is saying things such as a policy of multiculturalism and Universal health care, erode democracy!? I think i just had an aneurysm!!! Great! there goes a thousand dollars out of my bank!!

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Guns don't kill people, people kill people, and monkeys do too (if they have a gun)
-Eddie Izzard

Instead of Gibson, FWS should have targeted Coca-Cola and Cargill to see if all the corn syrup they use has a Lacey-certified supply chain from field to factory.

If this needs to be done to every single thing that originates from a plant or animal species, well then there isn't enough currency the world over to pay enough people to enforce this, or comply with it.

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The member formerly known as erikbojerik....

So when was his point of reference? In which year did we all enjoy this cultural paradise and this freedom of the individual? It can't possibly have been in the 20th century. Most people were too busy with world wars. In the 19th century we were sending kids down coal mines. In the 18th we had the Great Irish famine (famine was everywhere). It gets worse the further one goes back in time.
For the average individual there has never been a better time to be alive!

They don't have to go after everyone, just a few big companies. All you have to do is "make an example of them".

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Groan. Most of you seem to be missing the point. Gibson has been accused of falsifying import documentation, and that is the crux of the matter. The lawers will probably have a field day on what is the legal definition of a fingerboard blank, and what is the legal definition of a sawn log, but at the moment Gibson is fighting it's battle in the court of public opinion. So, I listen but don't take a great deal of notice of what Gibson has to say. Of course they are going to plead innocent in the court of public opinion, and also have a go at the government authority behind this. The point is that F&W are claiming that what Gibson stated in the import documentation does not match the actual product that was imported. If that is proven in a court of law, then Gibson really does have a problem. You would be in deep legal doo doo also if you tried to do the same thing irregardless of the Lacey Act. If I tried the same thing in my own country I would be in a great deal of trouble as well, and we don't have a Lacy Act or any thing equivalent. Falsifying import documentation is illegal. Whether Gibson did indeed falsify the documentation is yet to be proven, and fortunately Gibson does have the resources to defend itself. Most of us don't, so if you are importing or exporting just make sure your documentation is correct.

Only conjecture as it is all in this thread but my bet Peter is that this is all the same thing. Gibson's paperwork probably stated FBs and when FWS took a look, they only seen sawn wood. To get the warrant to search Gibson's premises, FWS had to submit an affidavit showing why it was appropriate. To get that across the line they would add everything they could think of and that would included stating that Gibson had misrepresented on the import form. Once FWS done the raid they uncovered exactly what their minds eye was looking for, swan wood. But I think this will all come down to definitions and on that note, I reckon FWS is in for a hiding and will pay the price for trying to enforce a USA Law based upon their translation of an Indian Law.

Cheers

Kim

Peter, I think you're reaching to suggest that Gibson was the one who labeled the wood in India. The reality is that they probably didn't. And we don't know any of this for certain. And how do we know that the government of India wasn't perfectly fine with the 1/2 logs being sold in that form? As some have pointed out, to them that could be the finished product. The other issue seems to be that the F&W folks are interpreting that to mean something that the folks from India didn't intend. So this is far more than just the documentation. If the Indian government is fine with the paperwork, then the F&W folks have over-reached their authority in the matter.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Peter - to whose "point" are you referring? I don't think I missed anything, but perhaps I'm wrong.

If the US government is now in the business of prosecuting American companies by second guessing another nation's enforcement of its own laws, that's a problem.

And regardless of whether the goods were "signed off" on by all the appropriate authorities in India before export, if this case comes down to how many times a log was sawn or whether or not the pieces were slotted or radiused in India before export, the fact that the US government has apparently chosen to bring legal action against Gibson based on that rather than pursue bigger fish...is a problem.

That is the point, IMO. Am I missing something?