Official Luthiers Forum!

Thanks for taking the time to respond - its a good debate and an interesting one, and actually we dont disagree as much as maybe the posts suggest - some things afterall are lost in translation! Firstly, I am glad you saw that this was not a justification of arrogance in anyway. I began by trying to understand why there might be some issues with inexperienced builders rather than justifying disrespectfaul behaviours.

I still think the Tiger Woods thing is relevent, because its taking tiger as the player using tools to do what he does best. In that analogy, the Galloways, and Pings are the makers, who have a justifiably a great reputation built on years of research and experience, they build great clubs and in the hands of teh master such as Tiger produce great 'music'

The point is that Tiger can bring his own experience as a player to bare on a custom set, or if he did his homework set things up and slowly made his own, they might not be perfect, but with care and patience and attention to detail would POSSIBLY be better than many mass produced average/good clubs.

So I hijacked your golf analogy a little, but I think mine explains a bit better where i was coming from.

With respect to the $5000 thing. I think firstly this is in NO way inclusive of the masterbuilt instruments built by those guys like Olsen and Ryan, Sheppard, and some of the very gifted builders on here - there is no way early guitars will stand up to comparison with this level of skill and experience which takes years of learning and developing skills to achieve - and I have no doubt that nearly ALL players would chose a Martin over a early build from an unknown name - myself included (but maybe over a Taylor - just a joke) - but alot of that has to do with the name on the headstock and resale value as well as a huge amount of trust. BUT I have played several early builds from smaller makers and hobbyists which more than match tone and in many cases DO better these in terms of build quality in terms of attention to detail and finishing - thats not arrogance, but a fact as these guys DO spend more time on these things because they CAN, not being subject to the production restraints of the factories - Martin can and DO make some great guitars, I own two, and would not part with them, but they are not the best built or finished, the woods are not the greatest, the bracing is rough and the neck angles were never spot on, but they sound great and play OK... but the home build is a match...whether luck or judgement that is my opinion as a player, not as a builder. I can appreciate that can sound arrogant, but its not false pride, and I was just as surprized as anyone else would be that this turned out to be the case, but its based on the years of playing experience and ultimately is that not how an instrument is judged? I was suggesting that this was not a unique phenomenon, as Hesh made the point and often does when first builders state their surprize and what they have produced. I would not be surprised if the quality then actually takes a dip as we get ahead of ourselves, so patience and further learnig becomes even more important if teh early guitars show promise.

Of course that does NOT entitle me to go toe-to-toe using your definition. Apologies, I was not taking this to mean 'confrontation' - that is some thing I would never condone. But if you read the last bit and also the other posts on the previous page, I was stating that I do think it entitles novices to an opinion that deserves some respect - it should entitle them to question and scrutinize as part of the learning process. The experience and years of accumulated knowledge that the pros bring to the table is how we learn, but should everything be taken in blind faith, or should we ask the right questions? This is not asking those to defend themselves but to broaden our understanding through explanation and sharing of the rationales and theory behind these solutions or techniques. Maybe as I mentioned the way these questions can come across in the cyber world can be wrong or enflame, but I doubt that is their intention. Naturally this needs to be done in the right way, with respect and with courtesy, but if you have an inquisitive mind its a natural part of accumulating knowledge that will help you improve and learn. I think that's why sometimes some novices feel a little disenfranchised if the answer is terse or short, even if in some cases that might be the best advice!

Finally, and thanks for hanging in there, please remember what I said about 'good' and 'great' - it is an important distinction when assessing the posts above. If I make 30 guitars in my lifetime as a hobbyist, I doubt 1 will be 'great', unless I am really lucky and my skills improve dramatically, but I would hope 5 will be very good, maybe 10 good and the rest a learning experience - but that would be based on the opinion of players and not builders who would perhaps and rightly so find fault with them!

I know that lots of experienced builders have chimed in with great responses to the question, but I still wanted to contribute
my own.

I really enjoy participating at a few forums for the simple reason that I can look back and clearly remember the deep desire
that I had for more resources than were available when I was cutting my teeth as a builder. With the very limited number of
books that were available, not to mention the poor quality of many and incomplete and inaccurate information offered by a
good number of even the most popular of them, I just want to be a small part of the body of information available to others
who are learning this craft.

Also, I believe that as we learn and grow, we have a need to share as much of what we've learned with others about things
that others are interested in. I teach classes occasionally on guitar building and hold no secrets from my students for which
I have actually received calls from other builders about. They've asked why I'm teaching classes that can create competition
for the rest of us and I have to answer, "All that more competition can do is force those of us already in the industry to build
a better guitar."

What better feeling could any teacher experience than to watch as a student of theirs' goes on to do a better job then they
can do themselves. It not only reflects in a positive light on the teacher's knowledge and ability to communicate it to a student,
but also on the passion and determination of the student as they absorb and apply it.

I don't agree that time online at the forums is a time suck in a negative sense, but see it as more of an investment in ourselves
and our business, but in the dreams and pursuits of others. When you are truly able to articulate what you've learned from
research and experience and communicate clearly to others, it simply serves to set it as a very firm foundation for the practical
application of it in your own efforts.

I'll never argue with anyone who has been building for a few years or is yet to complete their third or fourth guitar...or is yet
to actually make every part, perform every step in the completion of a guitar or have arrived at a process or method just because
someone more experienced uses it. It's not worth the time since they really don't have the experience or ability to fully understand
what and why they are doing. I'll just be happy to offer them advice from my experience and another opinion or finding to broaden
their palette of choices as they learn....and hopefully they'll be willing to learn so they come to the place where they will understand
what they're doing and why they do it rather than just doing it because their favorite builder does or because someone is willing
to pay for it. The sale of any builder's first guitars can be a blessing as it inspires them to build better guitars that can be sold for
higher prices and it can be a curse if a builder feels that what they're doing is good enough and they simply want to be able to
demand higher prices while offering the same quality guitars as before.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

"going toe to toe' is a term derived from the " sport" of boxing, where two fighters are actualy face to face, "toe to toe" slugging it out in close quarters . Jody

Not normally a sycophant, but Kevin, your post is why so many folk want to build guitars, its inspirational stuff from those such as yourselves who encourage and inspire us newbies hopefully on to better things. I hope that my posts were read in the right context, as i think 99% of novices are VERY appreciative of the time given by the experienced such as yourselves.

I will always ask questions, and not be affraid to ask WHY? because this is how we learn. the key is ensuring this does not come across the wrong way as if challenging, but illustrates a genuine interest to understand.

I had just posted in the "inexperienced luthier" thread and was curious about the topic of this one.

This one really hits home because I am so inexperienced in luthiery but have a great deal of experience in closely fitting wood and steel for a result that was attractive to users and exceptionally productive- custom firearm stock making. I know a great deal about steel because of what my father and his father did for a living and I have done a reasonable amount of shadetree heat treating and knife making. I know how to make a woodworking plane or chisel sing- thanks Dad and other grandfather. I know how to inlay- again, thank you stockmaking which I learned all by myself for the first dozen or so-my taste does not allow for inlay on "modern" firearms, but many muzzleloader rifles have functional equivalents of inlays and the first inlay I did was in 1964 on my first acoustic guitar- did fretboard pearl and added a backstripe and I just happened to be good at it.

I have made many of the parts of a guitar in a luthier's shop where I was hanging around, cutting law school classes, but never really built one whole guitar and did not try bending, of all things.

So, as a luthier, I am a "lu-----" but on occasion, I have contributed some little bit here- very little- but something for someone who asked. With a few small donations, I have tried to thank this forum- as much for the friendship as the technical advice, probably more. I have been honored to even post with such great luthiers- and more honored to "know" so many of you. and some of you have passed on a private word of advice or encouragement.

As an example, though, take Mario. He could be painfully direct- I don't recall a reply that did not at least give a "hint" along with the firm order to go do it and learn(more)- he didn't say the "more"-he assumed it brusquely. For some, he was too much; for some he was Mario and you knew what you were getting.

I surely hope that the veterans keep teaching us. Before I retired, I was most proud when someone said of me, as a lawyer, "he mentored daily- whether it was a peer or a young lawyer." And, even now I routinely get requests that I "consult"- I can't always remember appointments, but I know how to use the Rules of Evidence in the heat of battle and I know how to control what happens in a trial without it being obvious, even to a seasoned judge or opponent. I can no longer afford the high level research tools that were a big part of office overhead- if I could, I would do private lawyer to lawyer consulting( one of my secrets was that I actually studied the law as it developed daily). But, I still get the phone calls here at home and I still teach- and I am still proud to be thought of as a teacher.

So, to the teachers here- You are this forum. Thank you, Mike T.( PS- Last fall,I did get to teach "Introduction to Criminal Justice" at a university and even got paid to do it-I would dearly love to be able to be a full time professer-truly rewarding)

Todd-I hope you revisited this because of curiosity about my thoughts. Even if not, i read all of the thread before posting and I clearly understood that you were not taking the "time suck" position-proven even more by your willingness to answer questions, some of which you have outlined a dozen times before.mt

To sum up 4 pages- Some people are born teachers-they know whereof they speak and sharing is its own reward. How much better can it get? Thanks, to all of them. Mike Tobey- master of no trade whatsoever- rocky jack of many things, but I try, and I will listen. aka Mike Tobey, struggling luthier beholding to all; aka ole'lefty

Lots of interesting thoughts here. And Thanks to all who have shared their knowledge.
But I have to say that I don't care how much you know, I'm not going to let someone be disrespectful and rude to me or even others. I'll let it go once or maybe even twice giving them the benifit of doubt that maybe something is happening in their life causing it. After all you teach people how to treat you. I don't treat people that way and if I unintentionally say something to offend someone and they bring it to my attention then I'll apologize to them. This can't be said of some people. I haven't been spending as much time at another forum because of such things.
As far as being experienced. I think I'm experienced is some things and not in alot of others. One thing I know is I don't know. The areas where I feel I have some experience or have something to share then I do. I try and help where I can. If I find something that works for me then I like to show it as it might help someone else. And who knows? Maybe they will find a better way and show it to me. I don't know about others but being able to give back and help someone makes me feel good. There's alot of good people out there if you know where to look and this seems like one of the places I've found. Thanks to Todd Stock for turning me on to this forum.

I'd love to see more sounclips here (if that makes sense) - people say they aren't representative but you can photoshop pictures too.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

You can mix sound clips too. How about more YouTube clips?

I like soundclips too. I don't get too much out of 40 posts gushing about how great something looks unless the builder gets asked good questions about the construction, setup, finish, etc that actually increases our knowledge base. JJ did a nice job of that with his 12er.
The gushing threads can actually make a newer builder think they are better than they really are. We all fall prey to that. The pros know, and a lot of us with 30 or 40 "out there" are just starting to learn that stuff is going to start to come back with problems you never even knew existed. It's a humbling profession. Those are the guitars I'd like to see presented. (I've got some stuff to show soon) Some of you know I was an Orthopaedic surgeon for 30 years and at the big meetings the seminars on stuff that worked great were OK but the complications conferences were always standing room only.
Terry

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Actually, it's pretty easy to screw up the recording of a great sounding instrument, or any recording. The opposite is not true. IME a poor sounding instrument will still sound poor, no matter how much EQ, compression or fairy dust is applied to the recording.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/