Official Luthiers Forum!

Royal Lac, & sometimes Tru Oil on the neck.. As Brian pointed out us non-pros are at a disadvantage especially if we are working in a garage as I am.. Some product good or bad are just not an option, Royal Lac seem to be the compromise that works for me.

Kerry

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My Website http://klw-strings.com
My Luthier's Blog...http://klwstrings.blogspot.com

Enduro-Var, liking it.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I started using Behlen's Rockhard Tabletop Varnish around 2008. The formulation was changed to a urethane around 2012, so I switched to Epifanes Clear Varnish. Both were brushed on. With the recent availability of Royal Lac, and the possibility of changes in Epifanes due to regulations (I haven't heard of anything coming down the pike , but I don't want to be caught again), I'm just now completing my first Royal Lac, French polished guitar. It looks promising—the finish, that is, though the guitar does too.

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

I've been using Grafted Coatings KTM -SV since it came out. Not the perfect finish and a steep learning curve but it gives pretty good results. I have sprayed it, brushed it and used a small roller to put it on. Still looking for the perfect finish and may find it with out sourcing to Brian Howard. He makes some good points in his post above. - mdg

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guitarsbygiltzow.com

Cardinal Lacquer. A friend uses Mohawk and swears by it especially for price. Used McFaddens in the past. If they were still around (yeah I know, Seagraves) I'd still use Cardinal.

Best thing I did for nitro is switching from my Sata conversion HVLP to my current Fuji Minimite 4. 4 other friends have the same gun, with different Fuji turbines. Relatively speaking, spraying with Cardinal is high build, VERY low overspray. Buff in 7 days.

French Polish Royal Lac has for the last few. I am planning to try Enduro Var on the next one because of time constraints.

Last 2 guitars were nitro (Mohawk), also sprayed Royal Lac on a mandolin. Next guitar I plan to try french polishing Royal Lac.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

We are going "all in" with General Finishes Enduro WB poly varnish -- I really think the amber tint was a stroke of genius, it leaves the bluish WB coatings far behind. If it works for John Greven it works for me.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

It works, and it works great. But you still have to learn it. I just saw something from EMTech regarding their 9300 Polycarbonate Urathane. Not switching, but wondering if anyone has tried it.

Ken,

That sounds interesting. What do you pore fill with?

Any thoughts on the products hardness compared to nitro? Touchup? General serviceability?

Thanks

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

I use the WB Enduro Var over Zpoxy leaving a thin layer. As for the other repair stuff we'll see, but I am not concerned - where there is a will there is a way. Certainly will not be as easy as with Shellac or Nitro only the true solvent based coating have true chemically etched burn-in after they are completely dry.

Years ago at the Cadillac Plant in Detroit we had to switch to WB lacquer because of the EPA mandates -- note worthy is that for touch up and even panel repairs we still used solvent based lacquer on top of the WB.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Ken, thanks for the info. I've been using nitro of late but with all the talk of it being only a 50-100 year finish I've been thinking about other products. WB is not a concern for me. (Used KTM 6 then 9 for years) I think many of them may just be superior products.

Thanks for the feedback

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

I know this has been discussed before, but I just prepped a guitar with epoxy and am having a panic attack. General Finishes tells you NOT to apply over epoxy, right? But you have done so with no apparent issues? I was just about to do the same for the first time and a quick Google check led me to GF's site where they said not to apply over epoxy.

I believe the GF website states specially not to apply over shellac. But I guess maker's do it any way.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Here's the reply I got from General Finishes when I asked about epoxy fillers some time ago>


Tom Monahan <Tom@generalfinishes.com> 08/31/15 at 12:58 PM
To kencierp@yahoo.com
Message body

Enduro Var is NOT compatible with shellac. You will have adhesion failure. It can be used over epoxy. AS pore fillers go Timbermate or Color Tone from Stew-Mac works fine with our products.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

A question for any one using royal laq....What type of pore filling system do you use and do you fill on bare wood or after a little seal laq?

I have pore filled with epoxy leaving a wash coat. I think as been said before any french polish depends on a REALLY GOOD job of preparing the surface. Royal lac is no exception. I have found that I need to spend quite some time with the epoxy (I use System 3, but I don't think there is much difference between the variants). Coat, level sand very carefully, re-coat, re-level, etc. Often three coats which means three days. I level with 320. When I am finally satisfied that it is truly level I work my way up to 800. THEN I start the French Polish.

Because I can lose up to two weeks with this, I've tried Enduro-Var. Could not get acceptable results brushing it on with a foam brush, however. I would level out the inevitable brush ridges (even though I flow the brush very carefully) ending up with a lot of re-coating and leveling. One coat never seems thick enough to level without sanding through. I'll try again, but not very pleased with early results.

As an aside, those of you who have brushed on EV: did you level after every coat or did you apply several brushed coats and THEN level?

Me neither -- tried really expensive bristle brushes also. In my view way too much work applying and leveling.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

I've used Timbermate and also oil filler. Both sealed with Seal-Lac which is nothing more than 2# cut shellac.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I french polished using Royal Lac last fall and really enjoyed the process. However, I play an hour or two per week and just noticed that the finish is worn through the top in the bevel zone where I my forearm rests. I'm sure it was just too thin of a build, but I'm starting to explore other options simply to give me something to consider.

My current project has great koa back/sides, and an LS redwood top. I'd like the finish to look as deep and wet as possible. Don't we all? I'm pore-filling with Z-poxy.

Does Enduro Var have a nice, deep, "wet" look?

I use the Sherwin Williams fast dry oil varnish diluted about 30% with mineral spirits. I wipe it on and then wipe it off. 400 grit between about 8 coats then wet sand and hand buff. It looks really good to me. Being a hobby builder and still learning this stuff it is a great way to go. No expensive equipment, just some old clean t shirts.

Several of you have stated that you have French polished with Royal Lac. Does that mean you pad on with oil and simply substitute Royal Lac for shellac, or are you talking about the brushing or padding method without oil that Robbie O'Brien demonstrated in his video?

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Kevin Mason
Mason Guitars and Ukuleles on Facebook
http://masonguitars.net

I just used that stuff on my last guitar and I really like it. In fact it's going to be my go to finish from now on unless otherwise requested. I brushed it on right out of the can to build it up then diluted it for the final top coats. Great stuff and it has that nice oil finish look.

I used the method Tom Bills teaches in his course, using either no oil or various types of oil at different stages. That might sound complicated, but it was pretty straightforward. He just uses different types of oils in different ways as the finish progresses.

I've been sealing with waterlox- I like the deep look the oil gives then pore-fill (if pores aren't too crazy then just sand with waterlox, if pores are big then have used a number of things but mostly pumice...haven't found a water-based filler I like and I've tried a few). Then a tie coat or two of de-waxed shellac then royal lac.

It took a little time to get a process I like down with the RL. I DO NOT like using oil with it. While it builds fast, it seems to really suck the oil up and, even after removing as much oil as possible after each session I felt like there was still a lot of oil trapped in the finish. Then, if the finish wasn't perfect off the pad and needed to be leveled, etc, I was getting witness lines...or at least very noticeable differences in hardness between layers (this was after 3-4 weeks of curing).

What I do now, that I DO like, is a padding technique that is somewhere between Robbie's demo and FP. I cut the Royal Lac with acetone ala Trevor G and start out padding in straight strokes with a moderately wet pad. With the acetone mix it dries almost instantly and I'll go over the same surface of the guitar 2-3 times before moving on to another surface. As I start to get some build the pad moves a little more freely and I'll go a little drier and start alternating circular patterns with my straight strokes. As I approach a film thickness I like, I start adding more and more alcohol to the pad-my last couple of times around I'm probably adding 1:1.5 RL(acetone cut): DN alcohol.

In general, you can't ever really get to the point where you can use as much pressure or move the pad as slowly as you can with a regular FP technique.

The finish goes on very thin but dries and builds quickly doing this. I could probably do an entire guitar start-to-finish in a single day if I wanted to but haven't tried yet. The last one I did in two 3-4 hr sessions, a day apart.
After it cures for 1-2 weeks, I go at it with 1200 and get it to 90-95% level (not worried about a few shallow shiny specs/streaks at this point. Then I let it cure for another 3 weeks or so (it does shrink back), then take it 100% level and buff it up. It looks great...and this stuff gets hard.

The reason I do the initial 1-week level is that it seems quicker to knock down before it gets too hard. But it'd be fine to just wait 4 weeks before touching it-it really doesn't take much leveling applying it this way.