Official Luthiers Forum!

Yes Beth up here in Cumbria we say all sorts of rubbish, fanny's yer aunt, up to the makers nameplate, its all the same basically "there you have it" here's a piccy.

I find it so hard to get over my hang-up that butt joints are as good as mortise and tenon but it must be so much easier and require less tooling. After having spent ages building a tenon and mortise jig copied from a Robbie O'Brien video I'm stupidly reluctant to change.
John, how to you tighten the hanger bolts in?

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We are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at guitars.

I don't know how John does it but I always just double-nut them and use a box/open wrench

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Just wanted to add.
I use barrel nuts in the tenon which have the ability to swivel and so no trouble getting the neck angle right.
With the butt joints, using either hanger bolts or threaded inserts, is there any problem with the bolts just no allowing the correct neck angle when tightened?

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We are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at guitars.

Makes sense, thanks.

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We are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at guitars.

Thanks Neil….those pics were just the ticket

I use the 1/4 20 by 10mm (about 3/8 inserts form either home depot or Rona - Rona is usually half the price. Drill the hole at 3/8, then tap in using the drill press as the press ( get the neck at the correct angle and clamped to the table) and a wrench to turn using a double nut on a long threaded bolt, which is inserted into the chuck. In the heel, I cut two 1/8 inch wide slots about 1/2 inch deep and put a couple strips of eirw in there for the inserts to bite into, haven't had one come out yet. The inserts also get some thin crazy glue once they are in - but you don't put them in once you cut the neck heel angle .. wait until you have flossed it to the true, tight and correct angle, then put them in so they are square to the neck block holes.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Joe,

I thought the same thing. I used the hangar bolts as a save for a tenon that I had goofed up. Once I started with the but joint, I never looked back.



I do the same as Steve with the double nuts. I used some CA glue to secure them

once I was ready to do the final attachment of the neck.

I had a few issues with this. My main problem was I would get things right but hadn't planned for the clearance of the shaft for the bolt cap. Once I realized that and opened hole a bit for those, I was ok. Any alignment issues with the hangar bolts themselves can be adjusted with a file through the hole in the neck block. Of course I mean any reasonable alignment issues.

I'm by no means an expert with this. Its very simple though.

Why would the hangar bolts affect the neck angle any more than a rigid tenon? Worse case, get the neck angle set then drill the holes to install the hangar bolts square with the cheeks.

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

Following Mario's recommendation, I use hanger bolts into a maple dowel as well, and cut them to the length needed. Probably unnecessary, but I drill the hole in the heel a little larger than I might, so the bolts screw in fairly easily and I don't risk cracking the heel. I line the hole with JB Weld epoxy, perhaps adding a little strength and filling the conical tip of the hole. From what research I could do, the withdrawal strength of these bolts is greater than needed. Using hangers bolt is easier and cheaper than using inserts, and I'm more comfortable with less metal in the heel, feeling that it is less likely to crack over the years. I have no empirical evidence to support this feeling.

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Tim Allen
"Never hurry, never rest."

So for those who use a dowel so that the bolts are screwed into face rather than end-grain….do you just use your drill and a brad point bit to ream a hole the size of the dowel (?dowel size?), then glue it in?

Well obviously a drill press is preferable if you have one, but I've done it by hand. A good trick is to drill a smaller pilot hole first, and then follow with a larger bit. If it's a very small pilot, it can guide a bradpoint or auger bit somewhat, otherwise use a regular bit. Start from the heel, as it gives more room for error.

Another way to do it is start a pilot hole from both ends - with the idea that they meet in the middle, drill through with an intermediate size bit, and then drill through with the final bit.

If you want to use something nicer than generic white mystery wood, Rockler carries 1/2" hardwood dowels in mahogany, walnut, etc. I prefer hot hide glue for gluing them in.

I'd second Greg's suggestions for drilling methods if you don't have a drill press.

I understand that the mystery wood dowels you buy in hardware and big box stores are often Gonystylus, also known as ramin. Not a particularly strong wood, though stronger than a noodle despite the name.

Based on Grumpy's recommendation, I've used a 1/2" maple dowel, orienting the wood's grain so the bolt goes through it at a 90 degree angle.

I have a few brad point bits, but not a 1/2" one, so I used a regular 1/2" twist drill in my drill press, glued in with Titebond original. So far so good.

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Tim Allen
"Never hurry, never rest."

Filippo ...where does Beth say that the end of a dowel is face grain ???

Her "end-grain " reference is to the grain of the heel ...the hangar bolt encounters end grain first and then meets the face grain of the dowel.

Me too. I've been using brass ones for 15 years. Probably at least 30 guitars out there and never stripped one. I use CA as well.

I do think however that I may switch to hangar bolts. Seems like there are enough of them in the wild to prove they are a viable solution and it seems much more simple to apply.

Undoubtedly, from an engineering point of view there have been some excellent observations ...I particularly like Nick's idea of the 1/2" Whitworth threaded bar with the 1/4" internal thread ..groovy baby ... (although ideally you need a lathe to do this )

Thing is ...why do we want to introduce superfluous metal into an all- wood construction ?

The hanger (sic...not "hangar" ...my bad ...) bolts provide as much, if not more, security than even the most ingenious threaded insert ideas ...without the extra metal ...so ...why would anybody do it any different ?

I can understand the concerns of the posters who are uneasy about the registration accuracy of a butt joint as opposed to an M/T joint ... but all you have to do is make up a drilling jig which will register two holes in the heel and in the neck block to accept two short steel dowels, top and bottom. (I am indebted to Jeff at Huss and Dalton for that idea btw )

We all like to do it our own way. I use stainless allen-head bolts and brass inserts. I try to avoid stainless on stainless because it can gall. I don't like steel cause it rusts. I seriously doubt there is a significant weight difference between what I use and a couple of hanger bolts and nuts. If I was really worried about that I would just a dovetail.

Is mine better? Who cares - do it how you like. If the neck falls off then your method sucks

I'm surprised we haven't heard from the dovetail purists.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

You can get most options in the UK here

http://www.theinsertcompany.com/theinsertshop.shtml

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Nick

Follow my musings on getting started in luthiery http://www.tredwellinstruments.co.uk