Official Luthiers Forum!

I beg to differ (respectively, of course…). The question asked by the OP is a very healthy one to ask ourselves. Just like any business of organisation that deals with the public, we should be very attentive as to why people don’t come here, or worst, leave or keep silent. Just being happy with the folks that come here and are cool with how things are going, saying everything is fine and dandy under the sun, would be playing the ostrich, burying our head in the sand.

I have been a full time luthier for 7 years now. If I was able to move from a hobbyist with questionable results to a full time guitar maker producing high end guitars, it is greatly because of the many professionals that used to hang around here, generously feeding me with their valuable knowledge, often acquired in a far more hard way than by grabbing info from a forum. And I am extremely thankful to them. Some are still hanging around here a bit (Mario – or Grumpy – is one that comes to mind), but as it was pointed out on multiple occasions in the past, including in this thread, most pros seem to avoid this place now (or just lurk and keep to themselves). I see this as a significant loss of value for the OLF, and I think it is of the utmost importance that we ( or Lance for that matter…) do something about it if we want the OLF to keep being as popular as it is today, and populated with cutting edge information. (Try searching for “double top” for example, or "polyester" and you’ll see very few threads exploring the technique, and they are starting to be old ones… )

No matter how many amateurs with 10 or 12 guitars behind their back participate and generously give their feedback, it will still remain feedback from amateurs. Advice from several professionals with 100+ and 200+ guitars is significantly more valuable, and I think we should thrive to insure that many more pros get comfortable here and feel safe giving their feedback, techniques or tricks, without some wiseass (pro or amateur for that matter) who somehow feels threatened by a technique different then his starts publically discrediting it . SimonF reference to his thread about EVO fretwire is a very good example of that, I think. To quote Mario:


… is quite understandably what Simon came to feel, and what others that just were reading the thread as well, pros or not. This sort of discussion (the Simon thread) is just not healthy for the luthier community. Failing to admit that, saying “screw the ones that don’t like a debate!”, is easy to say when you are the one pissing off others, and falls sadly very far from being constructive and beneficial for the OLF.

On the other hand, this discussion, or at least the questions it raises, is a very healthy one, and should not be swiped under the rug. Or else it will eventually be necessary to rename “The Official luthiers forum” to “The amateur luthiers forum”.

My 2 cents…

What exactly in that thread was unhelpful, Alain? Be specific and accurate, please.

It's important to understand that there are different personalities, cultures and styles of communication. But it's a lot easier to just get pissed off and say, "I'm taking my Tonka trucks and getting out of this sandbox."

Filippo

So...I am far more interested in pros that have the capability and inclination to cast a critical eye on their own and other's work and to move things forward, versus builders that offer little other than their own inviolate methods.

... But it's a lot easier to just get pissed off and say, "I'm taking my Tonka trucks and getting out of this sandbox."

Filippo

I have an uncanny sense of thread closure being imminent ...shame really...I thought it was a worthwhile topic ...

I consider political correctness and it's bastard stepchild, 'reasonable debate', to be a tool for preventing effective communication, rather than enhancing it

I'm not sure that anyone has a mind like mine, Simon - I grew up in a home with a large, fractious population which valued spirited debate and had no room for those that failed to offer an aggressive, rational defense of their ideas, or who chose to take offense rather than give fair warning. Being raised by wolves has it's advantages.

I consider political correctness and it's bastard stepchild, 'reasonable debate', to be a tool for preventing effective communication, rather than enhancing it. We're not discussing our second cousin's extraordinarily ugly child here - direct, accurate, and concise communication will not interfere with next year's holiday plans, but will permit the interested builder to better understand the pros and cons of a particular idea or methodology.

Do we have to cover basic personal insults versus actually having some sort of rational thought worth expressing, Chuck? If you are going to call someone an as whole (note spelling and word use), at least attempt to do so with a trace of finesse...it is really not all that difficult to convey the notion with some flare and humor. PM me...I can probably help you to put together something that we'll find amusing.

Chuck...please...you quoted me. If that was intended to be indirect, I need to spend some time bringing you up to speed on what constitutes a direct versus indirect attack. I can ghost-write your posts for you, but don't you think a little time and effort on your part would be worth the satisfaction of knowing you did it on your own?

Chuck...really? Let me help you out here. If attempting to really insult someone - and particularly their intelligence - put some effort and creativity into it, man! Don't just sit there and flail...have a plan and execute it! Get fired up! Watch that 'flying high, now!!!' scene in Rocky...BE Stallone...all 5'5" of him!!! OWN the insult...get behind it and PUSH!!!

Honestly...I am just not feeling that you are giving this your best shot. I KNOW you can do better.