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Total sterotypical musings I know but why not - a lighter hearted look at this wonderful world

Guitar building types - Draft 1

The Obsessive genius
Totally focussed and driven in everything they do - for whom there is simply no satisfaction unless everything is perfect and its that goal that is the ultimate obsession.. fair enough, as combine that approach with talent and you have genius - and in guitar making terms a likely legend... known to burn completed Rio Instruments because there is a slight mistmatch in the bookmatching under finish... tend to cackle as they watch the flames - can be scary!

The Craftsman
Those who aspire to one day be able to produce master grade instruments but have a more measured approach, understanding that as they start out its a long journey and have the patience and maturity to see it through with hard work and dedication to the craft - Apprentice, journeyman, master - these are those that see mistakes as learnings - some will put it right others might leave it as a reminder of their journey. These guys inevitably end up building first class instruments. Just dont ask them to show you their wood stash - it will take many hours as they painstakingly tell you the story of the tree, the log, the lumberjack, the history of the house/furniture it first produced, how it became recycled and the story of its discovery in a skip (dumpster), how how much it cost to be resawn, how only one set was salvageable, but boy will it make a stunning instrument - usually nice guys though


The New kid on the block
We all hate them - cocky - smart, young and talented and after 5 instruments they have designed their own bracing, experimented with every part and are producing stunning instruments that are quickly getting a reputation - we want to find fault in workmanship but cant (CNC surely helps there ) - fault in the tone but cant and so we criticise their idiosyncratic styling or ...or... ... 'its not traditional is it'


The Geek (self confessed and silent types)
The master of science - what they dont know about densities, molecular structure, deflection measurments, audio analysis of tap tone wavelengths, mathematical formula, materials science, acoustic engineering is obviously not worth knowing - but they will read up on it anyway - Often build stunning instruments with great tone - but dont get out much!

The Master in his own mind
The first to criticise, comment and tell you what is wrong with your instrument - will tell you that when he built his 1st, it was already magnificent, and now having built 7 guitars he has all the knowledge he will ever need to rewrite the history of guitar building - strangely no one has actually ever seen or played one of their instruments - not to be confused with 'the new kid on the block' type who is equally as irritating but can actually back it up...

The mad amateur (possibly most of us)
Builds 1 - not a disaster - but is hooked... uses the kids college fund to buy tools and Zoot ( on the logic that that stack of old growth Rio will be worth 10 x as much by the time the kids need the cash and no nasty banker will have a chance to spend his money on big bonuses and then lose it all) desperately would love to give up the day job working for that oppresive corporate - hates wearing that suit to work everyday, but hey the mortgage needs paying and tool sare expensive - will end up owning more wood for more guitars that he could ever build in 20 lifetimes - wife is in effect a 'guitar widow' on weekends

The 'I dont fall into any of the above' ... builder



Yes you do

When I talk to a potential client about a commission I tell them that I'm a hobby builder and that if they want a CNC aestheticly perfect instrument to go somewhere else, I can't do it.

Sorry, but it's the truth.

I've had repeat orders so I must be doing SOMETHING right.......

but perfection is in the eye of the beholder

when I first saw my mate Paddy's 1970s Lowden Jumbo sporting it's #00001 label I thought it was gorgeous.

then a couple of years later Paddy enroled on the guitar building course that I was finishing off.

the tutor (Sam Irwin) had worked for Lowden in the very early days and asked Paddy to bring the guitar in.

He then spent 20 minutes pointing out all the flaws!!

(it's atill a gorgeous guitar BTW, I just know that it in't perfect now!!)

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My soundclick xx luthier blog xx luthier soundclick

For Frank's catagorization---


Thanks,
Joe

Thank you Frank for adding some humour to this infinity thread.

Also, I would like to add my name to the "Mad Amateur" ranks as your definition is spot on in my case!

Ray

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Guitar Building = Continuous Improvement Process

All through this thread I've been But I got a good chuckle from Frank's post. Looks like I fall in the mad amateur category .

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Thanks...from a typical mad amateur - although the good lady does not know it yet!

Yes, the "mad amateur" is a goodly proportion of the builders, but don't let anyone, least of all the ones on the "upper end" of the scale, tell you not to sell your instruments, if that is what you want to do.

You should sell the first guitar that is complete, I don't care if you get 10 bucks for it, that's 10 bucks toward the next one. Stand behind the first one, if the buyer has a problem, fix it, if you can't fix it, give him his 10 bucks back.
Get 20 bucks for the next, and so on.

I got $50 for my second guitar, 30 years ago. I recently talked to the guy I sold it to, he's still playing it, says "I like how it's all wierd".

It really isn't about the money, it is about the working, and the reward. Any complete work is worth a reward.

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https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008907949110

Frank! That is so great. I really enjoyed reading that. A little less seriousness is exactly what this thread needed!

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

I enjoyed reading it too......but I thought Frank was serious

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

True enough Woody! I guess I meant that his tone was less serious. And as we all know, its all about the tone.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Right on Burton ..... Tone sold three guitars in the last 20 hours ....

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Well... as the originator of this mess, I feel that I must say after my first kit build that I'm going to quit my day job and rid the world of these jokers who are putting out junk. I know that it sounds ridiculous to say that at 26, I know everything about making guitars but it is true. Gap-free binding and frets that will make you cry--who wants a tee-shirt and a bumper sticker with my name on it?

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Don't confront me with my failures--I have not forgotten them.

I dont actually think its a mess Matthew, you raise a valid point and back to being serious for a moment i dont actually think there is a right answer here. Whatever, the reason and aspirations of builder who ae maybe seling instruments where quality control does not meet the standards some set for themselves - it really is only an isue if there is no market for those instruments. It will I guess be about perceived value and expectations at a price point for a customer. If there is a market for hand mades at $1000 that are not as good as teh higher end instruments and some one can make a successful business out of it, than thats fair enough. If there is no customer base for this, then eventually those builder will either go out of buisness or they will need to address their QC and their price point.

I think its maybe a bit idealistic to expect everyone to a) be able to build to the master standard even after many guitars or b) aspire to, as sometimes there is a certain charm in a more rustic looking instrument especially if the tone is god and the price point is fair - afterall many of us have players have a beach/camping guitar or if £1000 is your limit, owning something unique despite its 'issues' can be appealing.

As to criticising makers, I think all critique IS valid if based on knowledge and understanding - but I also believe it has to be relative to the price point and experience of the maker.

Its simple - If I was paying $1000 for an early hand build by an unknown maker that sounded good but had flaws, I would judge it against that price and value... If I was spending $20,000 on a master grade instrument I would naturally expect close to perfection, I say close, because its the nature of a hand made process that there may be things that can really possibly only ever be 100% if made by machine - and at that price point the tone would surely (hopefully) be beyond criticism...

So hypothetically, I am at a show I wonder around and spot a nice looking instrument - I have a strum and pick and it sounds wonderful and plays wonderful -I want it - I then look inside and at the detail and its not quite perfect - what do I do? Well it depends on the price - if its $2000 and the tone is great, I can live with some of the imperfections, and would think nothing of it... If it was $15,000 and the tone was great, I might still be able to live the imperfections, but I would just not have expected them and maybe I negotiate a discount !

The controversy comes when those with little building knowledge criticise what the really dont understand, and I can understand experienced pros being just a little 'annoyed' by this. But I do think there probably are a few builders who are maybe equally annoyed if their instruments are criticised at all especially by customers - its a natural reaction.

Personnally, I cant stand being criticised , but I do eventually appreciate that if its designed to help me improve it can only be a good thing. I guess if I was in the market for a $30,00 guitar and loved the tone of one I had tried at a show, but felt there was a tiny detail I could just not live with, would it be OK to ask the maker to a build something similar but to try and avoid that 'flaw' ? I guess alot depends on the reaction you would get... and I suspect that might vary a little

That is a pretty cool idea for life... Kinda like a Modern Day Kane from Kung Fu Theater....

Wander the Earth... Hunt down the perpetrators of Junk Guitar Building and TEACH THEM KUNG-FU JUSTICE!

It certainly would be a lot less expensive than BUYING up all of those pieces of junk and burning them....

There is one particularly Stinky Pig of a guitar project sitting in the local pawn shop. It has been in there for over a year at $299.00... Looks like a Martin Kit -- EIR B/S and Adi top... Very very pretty Professional finish.... Plays like a coffee table strung with fence wire!

I am sorely tempted to haggle him down a bunch, buy it, and fix it up... But.. for that same $299.. I can buy myself a Kit and build it up right... and I wouldn't have to worry about crappy glue joints coming loose.... so I just can't bring myself to do it... If it was $50.00... It would be a different discussion...

I want one of your Tee Shirts.... Maybe a Picture of Mr. T saying something like "I Pitty the Fool who makes Junky Guitars!"

Thanks

John

I recently talked to the guy I sold it to, he's still playing it, says "I like how it's all wierd".


That is great David what a wonderful compliment.

I'll jump. God made me a perfectionist. So from guitar 1 to number 7 now, it's been a steady learning experience. The 6th and 7th builds have been vertually "build" without blemish excellent, however finish flawed to the point I won't sell them. When the finish is good enough to sell, will it be as a production nitro finish... no, it will be a hand rubbed french Polish finish, big difference. It will play as well as can be made (by me). I'm a no name builder who will sell for $1200 to $2000. It's the carefull buyer (as mentioned in this thread) who will be the real winner when they buy my guitars. I make 6 figures a year in my real job, guitar building is a passion and hobby.

I agree with the folks here who have seen such work. You wouldn't sell it nor would I, but it's still there and going to be there. I'm not loosing sleep over it or compairing anyones's work to my own. My .02

Dave

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God, Family, Carreer

Same...when folks ask if I sell what I build I tell them I'll take one or two hundered max, and or barter/trade. This is just to help finance the next instrument. For me it is all about making stuff...and, of course, getting better at it if I can. I would love to be in the catagory that 'quits the day job' but...well, not yet. My saving grace is the most patient wife in the world...she actually encourages me to make more and have fun!

-Matthew

Matt,
That's a good goal to have....to be able to quit the day job to build. I've been building full time
for 19 years now and it's been great to just head into my shop next to the house to put my day
in.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

I'll take a T-shirt, but my 1986 Buick is too nice for bumper stickers

FWIW I've enjoyed this thread.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

Hi gentlemen!
This is my first post here. I am a "greenie" by almost any definition. So I am not speaking to think my opinion could "trump" anyone else's, just hoping to add to an interesting thread.

So here is my ponderable questions:
1. I am a skilled hand-worker by practice and profession. I mean, REALLY practiced. Even at that, I find that sometimes my ability is frustrated by the materials or circumstances of luthiery. If I have my troubles with my background in precise handwork, I can only guess how intimidating it would be for anyone not previously practiced in this type of work. Crippling? Could be. But it does no good to talk about how good you would like your work to be but never actually do it. (I know as I have about 15 things on my "I wanna do this" list, many with materials and tools sitting patiently waiting for me to make my move!) My point? I guess it is that the person in question should forge ahead, clumsy or not, to make stuff. Clearly they will learn. Certainly their work will improve. It will most improve, I would estimate, by making instruments. The more they sit and dwell on how perfect the instrument must be to be "valid" the less likely they are (my opinion) to ever make a noteworthy instrument. I realize some of you know or are aberrations in this logic, emerging from the womb with a low-angle block plane and a fret saw clamped in your screaming little hands! And that is so cool as to be amazing! But amazing because it us unlikely and rare.

2. I buy and love magazines like "Shop Notes" but always giggle when I see someone making shop furniture that would probably "ribbon" in any woodworking contest! Again, good for them, it's amazing! My shop fixtures are "good enough" in every way. The parts that are supposed to be straight are straight, the parts that don't have to be straight usually aren't, at least not on purpose. Not because I wouldn't like to be able to spend two months making a saw cabinet or such, but, in the end, I would rather use my (only too precious) time making stuff that means more to me. Jigs are not my source of pride. MDF works fine for cabinets. So does raw pine and some clear shellac as a finish. Ok, it isn't handcut dovetails and a carved pediment in solid mahogany and beech, but I'll save that for something worthy and my shop fixtures aren't. Again, my opinion.

3. Instrument-making seems like it is XX% patience, XX% experience and XX% voodoo. I'll let you fill in your percentages. Some folks seem "voodoo-heavy" and still manage to make something unusually good, despite being "light" on the other two factors. That is abnormal, however. I am not sure how you could jump in having the correct percentages (whatever they are) of those factors on day one. So maybe you make up for low experience with extra patience or low patience with pre-existing experience plus "voodoo." I guess what I am suggesting is that, since people here know that "sound" and "looks" can be (somewhat) decoupled, someone may choose to go for performance first, looks second. Or looks first and performance second. Or hope that it all comes at once. Each of those scenarios produce different results. All are (within themselves) valid. Commerically, the only question is, do you have someone who wants it? I guess what I am trying to remind myself is that the musical world probably won't fold in on itself like George Jetson's car if someone makes a "rat rod" guitar. Or even one that looks like a honey but plays like a $99 Guitar Center special. Nor would either of those instruments undermine the excellent work being done here, nor invalidate anyone's honest struggle for perfection. At least that is where I seem to be shaking out on this. Opinons?

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Mark W. Lewis
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I'm tired of followin' my dreams. I think I'll just ask 'em where they are going and hook-up with 'em later - Mitch Hedberg

I have heard it said " noone has ever made the perfect guitar " a guitar has about 25 different parts ( depending on how you look at it) and putting them together to make a musical instrument is extremely difficult.
I personaly believe tone and playability , are the two most crucial factors in an acoustic guitar , one must not forget however , we live in a very visual society, where the majority of society is very concerned, infatuated , overwhelmed,fixated( or whatever the right combination of words is) on appearance.many value apearance over substance!
I also think pride should play a part in the quality of workmanship you are willing to put out there.
if you are going to try to make a business of selling guitars I think attention must be paid to fit and finish, or at least that will greatly increase your potential customer base.after all most people like to boast about and show off their acquisitions.
if you glued together a kit and want to try to get $300.00 for it Good for you, its a free market.
artwork is another category altogether,some fancy inlaid " work of art' instruments are fetching high prices, but
rarely without fit, finish , tone, and playability and usualy within the accepted realms of what an instrument " should be ".
if you can leave rasp marks , and other "designed" imperfections , and have people intrepret it as art and buy them , then it must be art.

heck a fellow not too far from me makes sculptures out of scrap metal, to me it looks like a huge pile of waste from a construction demolition site, welded together and painted silver, but he has people paying him huge sums of money for his " art".
building guitars is a most difficult task., I am certainly not going to hack on anyone for building something less than perfect. I will look at the masters works as something to strive for. Jody

This is my personal definition of heaven on earth. I truly wish I could do this everyday, even though I'm sure it has its downsides at times.

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John Lewis
Wannabe builder owned by 2 crazy dachshunds

OK, I hate to be critical but, it sure seemed to take that old CF Martin dude a long time to get his skills together. I've seen some pictures of guitars he built back in the 1930s and 40s* and you can see saw marks on the backs!?!
Walter

* See the "Clarence White" Martin that Tony Rice plays or some of the pre-war Martins in Kellerman's "With Strings Attached".

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Walter Lay
"It's taken me so long, but now that I know
I can see. All that I do or say, is all I ever will be"
- Billy Joe Shaver

And then there's the sloppy glue clean up job he did. Just imagine what thoses guitars "could" have been worth if he had just been a bit more tidy.

John

Glad you're paying attention John and flattered that you actually chased some obscure, but true,
mention of glue inside of a Martin in one of my posts with a comment. It was never said, though,
that they were sloppy or that proper clean up wasn't done during construction. Funny stuff. The
people at Martin have always been exceptionally attentive to clean up, but they do use glue and
there is some evidence of its presence in the guitars at times.

With the widespread use of glue wheels and special applicators, the coat of glue that is applied
to joint surfaces during construction has been is exceptionally thin and smooth so squeeze out
is minimal in the huge factory that Martin is.

As far as I know, C.F. Martin didn't hasn't built a single guitar himself since 1873 when he died.
The saw marks that were visible inside the backs of some guitars were always in guitars with Brazilian
Rosewood backs and sides, To conserve the wood when it began to become more scarce in the quality
that they were accustomed to, they were sawing it as close to the final thicknesses as possible to get
more slices out of a log. Sometimes, they were so close that the sanders didn't remove the saw marks
before the wood was at its minimum acceptable thickness. The clean side would become the outside
and the harmless saw marks were able to be seen on the inside.

Let it go my friend.....let it go.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars