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Non-rosewood favorites

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Trevor Gore

Post subject: Re: Non-rosewood favorites

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:02 pm

Koa

Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:45 pm
Posts: 1484
First name: Trevor
Last Name: Gore
City: Sydney
Country: Australia
Focus: Build
Status: Professional

Here are a few alternatives. See if you can pick 'em!

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There's a free set of books for the first to correctly pick all 8 before 25th Dec! I'll need the full botanical names.

Merry Christmas everyone!

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_________________
Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au

These users thanked the author Trevor Gore for the post (total 2): Pmaj7 (Mon Jan 15, 2024 2:54 pm) • Alex Kleon (Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:31 pm)

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Alex Kleon

Post subject: Re: Non-rosewood favorites

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:03 pm

Contributing Member

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:32 pm
Posts: 3470
First name: Alex
Last Name: Kleon
City: Whitby
State: Ontario
Zip/Postal Code: L1N8X2
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur

I won't hazard a guess, Trevor, but I'm getting your books for Christmas (they were out of print last year) anyways! Very generous of you to do this!

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

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Jonny

Post subject: Re: Non-rosewood favorites

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:07 pm

Mahogany

Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:59 pm
Posts: 54
First name: Jonny
Last Name: Fifield
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur

Gidgee
Sheoak
Blackwood
Planetree
Gidgee
Jarrah
Tassy myrtle
Blackwood
Am I even close?

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"Practice enough till the results aren't hopes but expectations" forum member Peter Havriluk

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jfmckenna

Post subject: Re: Non-rosewood favorites

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:37 am

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 6262
Location: Virginia

Alan Carruth wrote:

Some of the local luthiers call wenge 'African crack wood'. With the wide swings in relative humidity we 'enjoy' it doesn't seem to hold up well.

Padauk is another close match for BRW in properties. It also has a tendency to crack in my experinece, and it has pores like soda straws. I;ve used it as a demo wood for French polish filling; you can do a perfect job today and tomorrow it's right back to where you started almost. Thus you can get plenty of practice from one piece. The color change is much slower under finish, and it's not really an unnatractive color in the end. The old inlay artist's rule is that all woods end up brown, so you don't pay uch attention to the fresh color if you're making something to last.

In my mind, the big advantage of 'local' woods is the way they're harvested. This is not to say that all of the walnut or maple or cherry out there is cut under strictly eco-friendly conditions. However, most states in the US have pretty reasonable laws about wood harvesting that punish poachers, and they tend to be enforced. I have read that most of the US hardwood on the market is cut from privately owned plots of land of under 200 acres. In other words, it's not some big corporation that's only interested in raping the land and moving on; it's somebody like me, who has some timber and wants to realize some income, but is not going to ruin things. In theory the harvest can be sustained indefinitely.

Of course, the same could be done anywhere. 'All' that is needed is good laws, well enforced, and low corruption. Many tropical areas seem to lack one or another of these conditions, so that even if the local poeple want to harvest sustainably they can't.

I can make a good sounding guitar out of any number of different woods, so I don't feel any particular need to use tropical ones for the most part. I'd forgo them entirely if people would buy local. Perhaps, with all of the changes in the laws, that day is approaching.

Is it any worse then BRW?

I've wondered about this before but I don't know if it's practical but what about flooding wood that has high crack potential with CA? A CA pour fill perhaps? Would that actually strengthen the wood by penetrating in deep like thin CA does?

These users thanked the author jfmckenna for the post: Pmaj7 (Mon Jan 15, 2024 2:55 pm)

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Ken Jones

Post subject: Re: Non-rosewood favorites

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:16 am

Contributing Member

Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:31 am
Posts: 904
Location: Candler, NC United States

Great alternatives that I've used: Padauk (awesome, glassy tap), Wenge, Ziricote, Macacauba, Koa, Granadillo, Pau Ferro (high toxicity/sensitivity), Tasmanian Tiger Myrtle (thuddy tap, pairs well with a highly responsive top like German or Red Spruce), Claro Walnut (much harder than black walnut). Some species I own and can't wait to build with: Katalox (harder than Brazilian, bell-like tap), Australian Blackwood (stunning, much like Koa), Black Limba (sweet, dry tap), Movingui (visually stunning and similar tap to Padauk), and Pink Ivory. The tap of the PI isn't all that impressive, but I've played three PI guitars that all sounded fantastic, with a similar growl in the low mids.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Mountain Song Guitars www.mountainsongguitars.com

These users thanked the author Ken Jones for the post: Pmaj7 (Mon Jan 15, 2024 2:56 pm)

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Mike Franks

Post subject: Re: Non-rosewood favorites

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:44 am

Contributing Member

Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:49 am
Posts: 234
Location: United States

Malaysian Blackwood & Ziricote!

Mike Franks
www.mjfranksguitars.com
www.facebook.com/mjfranksguitars

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Logan

Post subject: Re: Non-rosewood favorites

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:23 pm

Mahogany

Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:20 pm
Posts: 51
First name: Logan
Last Name: Sarchfield
State: AB
Focus: Build

I'd love to read those books:

Gidgee (acacia cambegei)
Wandoo (eucalyptus wandoo)
Blackwood (acacia melanoxylon)
Palo Dorado (Pterocarpus indicus)
Koa (acacia koa)
Bloodwood (brosimum rubescens)
Red Meranti (shorea spp.)
Tasmanian Blackwood (acacia melanoxylon)

Am I close?

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George L

Post subject: Re: Non-rosewood favorites

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:31 pm

Contributing Member

Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 2:25 pm
Posts: 1958
First name: George
City: Seattle
State: WA
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur

Like many others, I'm trying to work my way toward building exclusively with tonewoods that can be sourced from my part of the world. At this point the favorite "alternative" materials that I've used include claro walnut, white oak, cherry, maple, sweet gum, and Port Orford cedar. They've all worked fine for me.

Trevor Gore wrote:

Here are a few alternatives. See if you can pick 'em! There's a free set of books for the first to correctly pick all 8 before 25th Dec! I'll need the full botanical names.

Merry Christmas everyone!

Merry Christmas to you as well, Trevor. These wood identification challenges are always tough and I have never shown great aptitude for them. I think maybe you've made things a bit tricky by including examples of the same woods cut in different grain orientations ... maybe. :lol:

Anyway, here goes:

#1 - Cocobolo (Dalbergia retusa)

#2 - Mountain Ash (Eucalyptus regnans)

#3 - Australian Blackwood (Acacia Melanoxylon)

# 4 - Silver Wattle (Acacia dealbata)

#5 - Australian Blackwood (Acacia melanoxylon)

#6 – Western Sheoak (Casuarina fraserana)

#7 - Mountain Ash (Eucalyptus regnans)

#8 - Australian Blackwood (Acacia melanoxylon)

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George :-)

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John Lewis

Post subject: Re: Non-rosewood favorites

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:54 pm

Contributing Member

Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:50 pm
Posts: 729
Location: United States
First name: John
Last Name: Lewis
City: Newnan
State: Georgia
Zip/Postal Code: 30265
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur

I think my favorites are padauk, Oregon myrtle, Goncalo Alves and mango.

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John Lewis
Wannabe builder owned by 2 crazy dachshunds

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mqbernardo

Post subject: Re: Non-rosewood favorites

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:55 pm

Contributing Member

Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:22 pm
Posts: 1295
First name: Miguel
Last Name: Bernardo
Country: portugal
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro

i´ve only built with indian rosewood, cypress and bloodwood. but amongst the wood stash, in the spirit of this thread, there is:

- katalox and gombeira (both swartzias) - very impressive tap tone, a beautiful deep dark brown (gombeira) or purple/black (katalox) and nice flame figure. very hard and stiff, seems like nice stuff for fingerboards too.

- muninga/kiaat and narra (both pterocarpus) - like padauk, but with different color, probably a tad less glassy tap. narra can have beautiful color (see Trevor´s guitar in prior post), muninga the most stable wood that i know of.

- chakte viga - orange and it stays orange (at least longer than padauk does). similar to pernambuco in looks. sunning figure, taps very nicely.

- macacauba - my only set is kind of plain looking but it is easily the most impressive tap after honduran rosewood that i´ve heard so far. thunderous, complex, ever lasting.

- black limba - not the liveliest tap, but impressive looks with variegations i can keep looking at for ages. cheap too.

- yew - i just love the looks of yew, can´t really explain why. must be the historic pedigree.

- malaysian blackwood - not cheap, probably will be included in CITES in the near future, but in the meanwhile...

ok... reading this again it is clear i spend more time looking at and taping wood than actually building guitars. i´m such a nerd.

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printer2

Post subject: Re: Non-rosewood favorites

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:33 pm

Cocobolo

Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:49 pm
Posts: 403
First name: Fred
City: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur

jfmckenna wrote:

Filling Wenge cracks with CA, going to take a while.

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Trevor Gore

Post subject: Re: Non-rosewood favorites

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:49 pm

Koa

Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:45 pm
Posts: 1484
First name: Trevor
Last Name: Gore
City: Sydney
Country: Australia
Focus: Build
Status: Professional

Thanks to all who participated in my little quiz. We have a winner! Clearly, Logan has been following my work and my posts pretty closely. Pics of all of these guitars have been posted in various places at various times, so well done Logan for picking them all out. Please P.M. me the address you'd like the books sent to. I'll try to get them out immediately after Christmas, so with luck you should get them before New Year.

The list is:

Logan wrote:

Gidgee (acacia cambegei)
Wandoo (eucalyptus wandoo)
Blackwood (acacia melanoxylon)
Palo Dorado (Pterocarpus indicus)
Koa (acacia koa)
Bloodwood (brosimum rubescens)
Red Meranti (shorea spp.)
Tasmanian Blackwood (acacia melanoxylon)

Here's pics of the other side of these guitars:

A gidgee classical. Gidgee is very dense, about 1300 kg/m^3 and the figured stuff is really difficult to work.

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The Wandoo "all Australian" guitar with a King Billy pine soundboard, gidgee purfling and a tilt neck.

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A blackwood steel string on my neo-classical body shape (about 00 sized), with just 15 frets and a "different" rosette treatment:

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A Palo Dorado neo-classical with redwood top (and wonderful tone)

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The koa guitar that thinks it's an overgrown ukulele:

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A bloodwood guitar, with a very red Sitka spruce top:

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The "Shed" guitar (made from bits of my house!)

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..and finally a nice, minimalist blackwood guitar.

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Merry Christmas everyone!

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_________________
Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au

These users thanked the author Trevor Gore for the post: James Orr (Mon Dec 26, 2016 5:04 pm)

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Imbler

Post subject: Re: Non-rosewood favorites

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 6:44 pm

Cocobolo

Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:14 pm
Posts: 439
First name: Mike
Last Name: Imbler
City: Wichita
State: KS
Zip/Postal Code: 67204
Country: usa
Focus: Build

I was under the impression that most of the EIR we are getting today is from sustainable plantations, so we aren't likely to have it become non available.
I could be wrong though, it has happened before,
Mike

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Tim Mullin

Post subject: Non-rosewood favorites

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:00 pm

Koa

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:14 am
Posts: 995
Location: Shefford, Québec
First name: Tim
Last Name: Mullin
City: Shefford
State: QC
Zip/Postal Code: J2M 1R5
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Professional

Imbler wrote:

You're correct, Dalbergia latifolia is generally well managed in India, where it is a major element of that country's timber industry. It is not endangered, and only considered "vulnerable" due to the general problem of illegal logging in SE Asia. EIR was caught up in this latest CITES resolution only because it is a Dalbergia. The resolution's argument to include all Dalbergia was because they "look alike", and not that all are endangered. India as a CITES party was not consulted during the drafting of the resolution, and my information from India is that timber merchants and the government are scrambling to respond to the new requirement for export permits. There may be a hiccup in supply, but that will get sorted. The bigger unknown is what impact the listing will have on demand for EIR.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

These users thanked the author Tim Mullin for the post: Imbler (Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:51 pm)

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Mike OMelia

Post subject: Re: Non-rosewood favorites

Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:49 pm

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:12 pm
Posts: 6994
First name: Mike
Last Name: O'Melia
City: Huntsville
State: Alabama
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro

Cocobolo. My gawd. Pretty wood. Easy to work with once u learn how. Of course, many are allergic to it. Weird, I'm not. And I'm hyper allergic to everything. By far my favorite. Makes good guitars rumble with bass.

These users thanked the author Mike OMelia for the post: Pmaj7 (Mon Jan 15, 2024 3:42 pm)

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William Bustard

Post subject: Re: Non-rosewood favorites

Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:02 am

Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:46 pm
Posts: 126
First name: William
Last Name: Bustard
Country: CANADA

In the past with wood too expensive I have pressed my own laminate.
A good cabinet shop may have a press and can do it for you.
It is very easy to bend and whence completed very hard to tell it wasn't made of solid wood.
I'd mirror match the two outer layers and place the middle filler wood in the opposing grain direction. I used two layers spruce veneer for the filler pressed at 90 degrees which gave good strength to weight ratio both vertically and horizontally this allows the outer decorative pieces to take the stresses lengthwise very evenly. So four layers of veneer al together makes up just the right thickness, usually.
This gives opportunity for wide selection of beautiful wood-of any species, including Brazllion and you can use some pretty wild stuff since you don't have to worry about cracks etc. super birdseye maple for example.
Many classical makers have used it and of course the big names do all the time.
Many of the early instruments in America, did not do this because it was actually more expensive in those times. The higher end instruments from Europe did especially during the romantic era.
Although not as traditional now as in the past for custom built instruments, Veneer is quite fun to work with.
and remains a viable option.

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You just pick up a chord, go twang, and you're got music. -Sid Vicious

Last edited by William Bustard on Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

These users thanked the author William Bustard for the post: Pmaj7 (Mon Jan 15, 2024 3:45 pm)

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William Bustard

Post subject: Re: Non-rosewood favorites

Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:08 am

Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:46 pm
Posts: 126
First name: William
Last Name: Bustard
Country: CANADA

printer2 wrote:

jfmckenna wrote:

Filling Wenge cracks with CA, going to take a while.

AWA - very toXic and expen$ive.-

_________________
You just pick up a chord, go twang, and you're got music. -Sid Vicious

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bluescreek

Post subject: Re: Non-rosewood favorites

Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 8:12 am

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:21 am
Posts: 4915
Location: Central PA
First name: john
Last Name: hall
City: Hegins
State: pa
Zip/Postal Code: 17938
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Professional

Bubinga is on CITIES now
there are many woods that indeed make a great guitar but Commercial success is mating supply and demand. That is why Mahogany and rosewood are the most popular for guitars.
I have a Maple dred that I built and kept it was that good.

Today's a new world the the client will have to learn to accept new woods. You can still get the rosewoods but it will be a hassle in paperwork.

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

These users thanked the author bluescreek for the post (total 2): Pmaj7 (Mon Jan 15, 2024 3:49 pm) • TimAllen (Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:51 pm)

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Bri

Post subject: Re: Non-rosewood favorites

Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 11:26 am

Contributing Member

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 10:22 am
Posts: 727
First name: Brian
Last Name: McDonald
City: Okanagan Centre
State: British Columbia
Zip/Postal Code: V4V2H6
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur

I am working on this sapele 00 right now. Very happy with the look of the wood, reasonably priced, and easy to work.
I also think claro walnut is one of the nicest looking domestics available.

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My memory is so good, sometimes I remember things that never happened.

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Alan Carruth

Post subject: Re: Non-rosewood favorites

Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:26 pm

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:50 pm
Posts: 3933
Location: United States

Sorry Mike; cocobolo is Dalbergia retusa. so it's included in the latest round of CITES restrictions.

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Duct Tape

Post subject: Re: Non-rosewood favorites

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:06 am

Mahogany

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:14 am
Posts: 85
First name: Jon
Last Name: Snider
City: Colorado Springs
State: Colorado
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur

Trevor Gore wrote:

Logan wrote:

This is just a beautiful set of work. Really stunning. As was your book offer, very generous. Is the binding on the Gidgee guitar also gidgee? Any source options for this wood to the US?

Thx again for sharing the pics. Someday I hope to make a guitar close to one of those.

Jon

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truckjohn

Post subject: Re: Non-rosewood favorites

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:17 pm

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:27 pm
Posts: 2109
Location: South Carolina
First name: John
Last Name: Cox
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur

Trevor - some beautiful alternatives.

I grew up in south Florida (USA) and many Australian species grow there like weeds.
Unfortunately, they are not recognized as capable of being used for lumber.... It's really a shame. As many of these can have a spectacular grain.
Stuff I had in the neighborhood
Casuarina hybrids (sheoak, buloak, etc)
Silky oak (grevillea)
About 2 dozen Eucalyptus species
Acacia
Melaleuca
Etc....

There were also several flavors of rosewoods and mahogany trees as well as mango, camphor, and monkey pod.... Once again.... All considered trash only barely suitable for burning and perhaps grinding into mulch.

Wood wise - a lot of the stuff we want to get ahold of (besides maple, walnut, and cherry) is generally an import of some sort of another and/or not really an important commercial lumber crop.... And so nobody does anything with the trees.. Except maybe the pulp guys...

For example... Chinaberry grows all over the place around here.... And by the numbers - it looks like it would be a good substitute for mahogany.

Thanks

These users thanked the author truckjohn for the post: Trevor Gore (Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:05 pm)

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Trevor Gore

Post subject: Re: Non-rosewood favorites

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:03 pm

Koa

Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:45 pm
Posts: 1484
First name: Trevor
Last Name: Gore
City: Sydney
Country: Australia
Focus: Build
Status: Professional

Duct Tape wrote:

This is just a beautiful set of work. Really stunning. As was your book offer, very generous.

Thanks for the kind words, Jon.

Duct Tape wrote:

Is the binding on the Gidgee guitar also gidgee? Any source options for this wood to the US?

Yes, the binding is "mad" gidgee. That's wood with grain so wild it goes every which way and you have to be mad to use it!

Duct Tape wrote:

Any source options for this wood to the US?

I doubt you'll find any gidgee suppliers in the US. Even in Aus. it's a pretty alternative wood, cut by specialist loggers who are contracted to take individual trees. Google should bring up a couple of Aus suppliers.

_________________
Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au

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truckjohn

Post subject: Re: Non-rosewood favorites

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:28 pm

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:27 pm
Posts: 2109
Location: South Carolina
First name: John
Last Name: Cox
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur

Probably the way to get stuff like that is to make a request straight to an Australian tonewood supplier.... Or perhaps a luthier like Trevor who knows where to get it and does some business in the USA...

I ran into similar with Casuariana. In the southern USA - it grows all over the place and goes by the name "Australian pine" due to the needles and cones. It makes some beautiful timber..... Nobody cuts it for though.... So I had to buy my sets from Australia..... Where it is called "Sheoak"....

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mqbernardo

Post subject: Re: Non-rosewood favorites

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:53 pm

Contributing Member

Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:22 pm
Posts: 1295
First name: Miguel
Last Name: Bernardo
Country: portugal
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro

truckjohn wrote:

I grew up in south Florida (USA) and many Australian species grow there like weeds.
Unfortunately, they are not recognized as capable of being used for lumber.... It's really a shame. As many of these can have a spectacular grain.
Stuff I had in the neighborhood
Casuarina hybrids (sheoak, buloak, etc)
Silky oak (grevillea)
About 2 dozen Eucalyptus species
Acacia
Melaleuca

exactly the same as here (Portugal - except for the paperbarks). eucalyptus globules and acacia mimosa are two of the most abundant trees here, and growing. native species just can´t compete.

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