Official Luthiers Forum!

We have a dozen 1/4 sheet pad and ROS's in the shop, including a 8 year old Festool ETS 5" (which we use for most raw wood sanding tasks), a 5" Dynabrade (I have not used this, but we apparently use it for sanding harder polyesters or when we want to take off a lot of stock quickly), a Bosch 6" (porch work...not used for luthierie), an older Porter Cable 5" (same), and several Rockwell Speedblocks that have been reequipped with hard rubber pads for wet-sanding oil finishs. Just on longevity, the Speedblock has to win - at least one of them dates from 1979, and has been through enough bearings and paper clips that there is a bag of new 'SPDBLK PRTS' on the door of the sander storage. On the Dynabrade, we have a two stage 60 gallon compressor, which just keeps up with that sander, so I am not sure that a smaller compressor would handle the job.

Here are decent, relatively recent review article I found while compiling my own lists of tools for the eventual full-service shop:

http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/work-order-tracking/tool-test--5-inch-random-orbit-sanders_6.aspx

_________________
A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

Another vote for the 5" festool with vac.

Sorry, but I hand sand and it doesn't take hours, unless of course you don't use a drum sander and are improving your hand planing skills.
Something like the BOSCH GEX 125-1 AE 125MM RANDOM ORBIT SANDER shouldn't break the bank in that case.

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Yes Colin ordered a bosch at reasonable price

Not got a drum sander so my boards are always pretty uneven

"Yes that's what I have decided to go for as cannot afford a lot of the suggestions ..although the suggestions are good for pro setups, as a hobbiest it will need to be a cheaper option. .as long as it saves sanding for hours"

Just to reiterate - using micron "papers" (Mylar) with uniformly sized grit for sanding the bare wood, and trizact disks for finish leveling will allow you to use moderately priced tools and still get superior results in less time. Although the disks are more expensive than cami and p grade papers they last much longer so the end cost is about the same.

I hope that model Bosch has a vacuum hose adapter IMHO those little pick up cups just don't get it done --- removing the dust as you go is important especially for the finish leveling.

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Not supplied with it Ken but I can buy an adapter if you think it's a must

Well one of the things that gets rave reviews is the dust extraction feature of the Festool RO, its hooked up to a vacuum cleaner (a very good one $$$$) though perhaps more primitive, attaching a standard vacuum to any RO works well and is an improvement.

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

My second shop was in an unused extra bedroom in a condo with plush white carpet..... This is when I bought the Festool ROS.

I just tried to find it and can't but I started a thread around 10 years ago here where I documented an experiment with the Festool ROS and Festool Dust extractor.

Test one was with the integral dust bag that comes with the ROS and no out board dust extractor. Test two was with the outboard Festool dust extractor, a CT-22 I believe.

I placed black construction paper on many horizontal surfaces in the shop and then proceed to spend about 1/2 and hour with the Festool ROS sanding maple and ash with 120 and 220 grit paper.

In both tests no dust was discernible on the black paper and I recall doing some macro photography and posting the pics.

Anyway since then I have talked with lots of folks who agree that the Festool stuff seems to collect dust with the integral bag or out board dust extractor very, very well.

Just as important (to me) was the absence of swirl marks or any hint that something was not hand sanded. It's nice to buy something that actually works as described....

A bonus was that it's pretty quiet AND fits my hand very well for one handed sanding. It's also variable speed and in combination with a Festool dust extractor turning on the ROS will turn on the dust extractor and turning off the ROS will trip a delayed, to clear the lines, turn off of the dust extractor. Impressive tools!

Lastly I stuck with Festool paper too not only for the hole alignment for Festool tools but after trying other papers the Festool stuff was clearly pretty high quality too. I never did a study but on a cost vs. life span comparison IMO the Festool paper was really no more expensive than the middle of the pack stuff.

And really, really lastly. At the same time I purchased a Festool cordless drill. Since I have been repairing guitars for around 8 years now and use the drill as a power winder it's likely been used on well over 5,000 guitars and mandos. I'll add that it's 1/2" chuck is great too and fits the Stew-Mac end jack reamer perfectly. The drill performs flawlessly and just last month I finally replaced the nicad batteries that came with it with nickel metal halide. To my surprise I was thrilled to learn that Festool at the time of manufacture of my drill anticipated that one day they would be featuring NMI batteries instead of nicad batteries. The original fast charger that came with the drill was and is forward compatible with NMI batteries and as such lives on and is still in use every day.

With all of this said I am convinced that least for me Festool stuff is really no more expensive than less expensive competitors when one considers heavy use over time (a decade now and counting) and the forward compatibility was pretty cool too. Festool may be the original Tesla.....

All of my stock is rough cut, so anything with figure I cannot run through my planer.
The ROS mays quick work to get down past the saw marks. I then hand sand using blocks.

_________________
wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

I HATE the ROS because my hand goes tingly and numb using it. I think I must be killing something in my hand. Still, for preping the wood for finish I use one. Anyone know how to minimize the impact on my nerves?

Not sure who sells them but there are vibration reducing gloves available made for such a purpose.

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

That's why I use the Mirka Ceros 5". I have carpel tunnel and the Ceros is smoother and lighter so it's easier on my wrist.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

A well balanced ROS will be smooth running, but no question there are still hi-cycle vibrations which are a true industrial hazard -- here are some protective gloves I mentioned above.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BHMBIU6/ref ... B003WT1Q1S

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Can anyone explain the purpose or advantages of the different random orbit specs: 3/8, 3/16/ 3/32 ?

Is the smaller orbit spec intended for finer sanding or finishing work, and the bigger orbit intended to remove stock faster?

(I did try searching Google for information but did not find any explanation.)

I had a Porter Cable 5" ROS that was pretty bad on my hands--the vibration would numb my hands. I replaced it with a RIDGID ROS. This one does not numb my hands. I have stopped using it with a vacuum--the vacuum pulls it too hard to the surface and sometimes leaves large round gouges. With the bag, it seems to sand pretty well. When I use it with the bag, I sand over a downdraft table and wear a mask. The bag is okay but it still liberates a lot of dust. Festool sounds like it might be worth a look.

Leo, you have it pretty much figured out. The larger orbits are going to remove wood quicker.

There are a few situations where the larger orbit pattern actually works better than the smaller patterns with some of the very fine "specialized" sanding products like the Trizact from 3M in the 3000 and 5000 varieties and possibly the Abralon foam stuff in the same range. Those would be used wet, not dry and for ultra fine sanding of a finish, not wood.

_________________
jw ( o)===:::

I have both the Ceros and a Dynabrade air sander, and I prefer the Ceros, partly because I don't use any other air tools in the shop, and my big compressor is the finishing room in another building, so its much easier to hook up the trasformer for the Ceros, which replaces the compressor. The two are pretty similar in design, I guess they designed the Ceros after the Dynabrade, which has been an industry standard for a long time. The Ceros / Mirka sanding "mesh" pads work quite well, as they really help with the dust control, which is a big part of the success. I got it mostly for sanding finishes (usually nitro), which I find really boring and time consuming to do by hand. I do level as much as possible, by sanding by hand with hard blocks as I build up the finish. After the final coat and cure period, I sand up to 1200 grit (dry) with the Ceros, then go directly to the buffer. I know some people who successfully wet sand with the Ceros, I think its a bit risky, so I haven't tried it much, but its possible.

_________________
Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Thanks for that Arnt Rian.

As much as I love My Dynabrade, the price to use it is my 5 hp compressor is going the whole time. It's good to hear the Ceros might be the innovation it sounded like it could be.

Sorry for the side track, but, 1200 dry to a buffer?
What 1200 and what first buffing compound?

Its the Ceros mesh 1200 grit, to the coarse (red-brown) Menzerna compound. You can actually take it to the buffer after 1000 grit, perhaps even 800, but there will be more work at the buffer.

_________________
Rian Gitar og Mandolin