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I use half string depth (+/-) slots because it makes for a better set-up and helps prevent string binding which in turn makes for easier more stable tuning.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

But full on the plain strings for me...

I'm learning a lot here. Gonna get a string lifter. Or make one. That makes sense. But I still wonder about this. Should the string contact the nut througout the whole channel? Angled sude and all? Or is that not important? I'm referring to the bottom of the string, not the sides.

I don't know how I misunderstood the Stew Mac idea about using files to widen a slot. Maybe I thought mine were abrasive on the sides (they are not). I may need to add to my file collection.

Barry thanks for that - Don Teeter gets attribution if you and Ken both think he's who originated the 1/2 string proud thing.

YMMV but provided that slots are cut correctly and don't pinch or bind it's for looks and part of the remove all excess material thing. For every nut slot that I encounter that once cut to optimal depth is 1/2 proud I encounter likely hundreds that aren't 1/2 proud and still function completely fine.

In the thousands of guitars that we've repaired no one has every asked for or commented about 1/2 proud nut slots but nearly everyone has commented that they wanted their ax to play better than it did.... Priorities ya know...

Tai Fu I've made half height proud nuts before although I wonder why now.... and all I did was before the nut is glued in place and after the slots are cut to near-final-depth take the nut top to the disc sander, sand off any scratches, buff and install. Only one additional step but again why is it even necessary since it's not.

Mike glad to hear that you are getting some value out of this. Nut making can be frustrating and it was for me so no worries. The string does not have to contact the entire bottom of the slot but it does indeed have to have full contact with much of the slot and certainly the slot bottom all the way to the nut face. We want the properly cut nut slot to terminate the string's "speaking length" precisely at the nut face (buzz feitin, earvona aside....). The only place where it does not matter if the string contacts the slot is if the slot is over angled coming out the back side of the nut. Sometimes we repair folks will "back file" a nut slot to exploit the physics of the string ark over the first fret. This is a technique that can recover for a while at times a slot that was cut perhaps one swipe of the file too far.

I don't understand your comment about using files to widen the slots. Mine, the gauged SM file that only have one gauge per file I scrape the nut slot sides as a matter of course every time I use them. Do you have the files with two different gauges per file?

Don't mean to dwell on the half height slot premise, just being Mr. Obvious. I would say that any portion of the string diameter above the "equator" does not contact the slot at all, so a "properly cut" deeper slot will not inhabit string movement or improve traction and transfer. For me the making of a more shallow slot is just easier to control and inspect.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

The deal about using a nut file to cut a wider slot is true but you must tilt the file at a steep angle (>45°) and purposefully press the file sideways so that it cuts the side wall of the slot. Not quite as easy as it sounds but it is easy to go too far and undercut the sidewall.

My opinion is that a half string proud nut just looks and feels better. A nut with overly deep slots tends to attract dirt and it can be a bit of an obstruction to your fretting hand.

I have done that a few times, limiting nut depth also fixes the undercutting problem

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Lots of good info in this thread and I agree that nut work is one of the most important things to get right for good playability and intonation. The learning curve is steep but well worth the effort to get it right.

Just my $.02 regarding break angle: I try to keep the angle where the string meets the nut on the fretboard side close to flat, then curve downwards towards the headstock in a gentle curve (like in the top sketch below). I used to just cut the slots at a straight 5 or so degree angle with pretty good results, but after making a bunch of baritone guitars I noticed that the thick 6th string didn't break cleanly and sharply, it kept rising upwards out of the slot for a bit like in the bottom drawing below. This caused the guitar to feel stiff at the first few frets and actually adversely affected intonation at the lower frets. I realized that was because the strings are not ideal... they actually have some stiffness to them and more so the thicker they are. So while it may be OK for thinner strings to have a clean break angle I feel like it causes problems on thicker strings.

Also I imagine that a sharp break angle invites the strings to wear out the nut slots faster but I haven't really seen that on my own instruments and fortunately I haven't have any customers bringing their guitars back to me for that reason so I'm not sure it's a real issue. Time will tell I guess.

Here's a better description of what I mean by scraping the slot side.

I'm never working the file back and forth on the slot side but instead on the initial down stroke I angle the file, perhaps 30 degrees and am sure to have it scraping one side of the slot as the file gets buried in the slot. If you have ever had a file bind in the slot do this a few times and that opens it up a thou or two. If the guitar "pings" when tuning back to pitch the same technique with only 2 - 3 side scrapes usually eliminates the bind and ping.

I'm not advocating using one file for all slots just offering a way to eliminate the binding file thing and the "ping" we hear when a string can't tune up or down because it's binding.

Ken there are lots of things in Lutherie that we can do our signature way what ever that is. For many it's fret ends and nut making too can be a tell tale of who did it as well. Nut slots can be a signature thing too and half string proud slots do look fine and feel fine too but I would avoid them for the high e and b since utility has to come before appearance and some players can rip the strings out of a slot if it's too shallow.

Here's some food for thought. We make a half string proud nut and mill the top down so it's half a string proud. Then your creation gets taken to another Luthier for a set-up and they think the slots are too high and cut them down further. There goes that half string proud thing right out the door. The moron of the story other than being me is that if you like the half string proud thing cut the slots as low as they need to be or someone else may end up doing it and ruining that half string proud look.

We will always favor playability over any cosmetic perception and I think that builders should do this too but that's up to you guys (men and women). After all these are tools for musicians. But again there are no rules here and what ever works very well is the goal.

Hey Ringo!!!! You draw better than I do...

Your illustrations are excellent examples of the string ark from the slot that I try to describe since I can't draw to save my life.... We work on baritones too and basses, basses far more frequently if not daily. We cut the slots for either the very same way as a guitar and what's most important to us is that the slots are cut low enough for player comfort, speed, etc.

What you are doing is fine with a low energy string that does not get hit really hard. But if I had a shallow ledge on the front of the nut with say a 6 string and a heavy handed player the vibrating string may breach the nut face messing up the intonation if the string is eventually really breaking some distance back from the nut face. I can see this working for a baritone and even bass guitars if the player is not too aggressive but it could be problematic, the flat slot at the nut face for some players. If it works for you, cool!

Just wanted to mention that for baritones and even basses we cut the slots the vey same way as we do for guitars and mandos.

by the way if you want to practice making nuts dont buy your blanks at Stewmac or LMI. inlaidartist on ebay sells nut blanks at less than 1 dollar a piece if you buy 50 or more

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Or if you're just practicing, use scrap hardwoods like ebony.....won't cost you anything.

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The traditional design of a cello nut sure seems to lend credence to Jim's ramp theory. What do you think?

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Ah! I'm getting it. I like that ramp theory with a roll off to flat

I make the nut slots full string depth, especially on a Fender type head where the angle from nut to post is shallow, so the strings don't pop out.
I make my slot widths with ample wiggle room to avoid binding. The slot bottoms are round and the strings tend to stay where they should with no chance of binding due to string tolerance, oxidation, finger crud, etc.
I'm far from being an expert, and I'm sure my methods will change the better my skills become.

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wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

So, Hesh, u use the Stewmac double edged files?

There are some important differences for violin family nuts. (not to be confused with violin family nuts)
The windings on violin/cello strings are very fragile and won't tolerate a sharp transition. Especially because the break angle into the pegbox is steeper than to the tuners on a guitar.
Not a lot of bending going on.
Intonation is not really an issue on violin family stuff.

The nut in the photo above would be considered very poorly cut. In addition to being way too high, if you follow the curve of the strings with your eye, you can clearly see the lumps and bumps in the curves that make an instrument hard to tune and will wear out strings prematurely. violin family strings can be incredibly expensive.


Mike, you can ramp to an angle but if you ramp to flat,(parallel to the fgbd) it won't work on a violin or a guitar.

Paul Hostetter's site has some really useful diagrams if you have not been there already.

http://www.lutherie.net/nuts.html

My slots (so far) have been ramp to front edge of nut. We've got a drawing above saying ramp to flat. We've got David (above) saying that won't work. Why won't ramp to flat work?

To me, as an engineer, (mechanical if it matters), there's a good reason for everything. There is a relationship to slot width to string width. Then there is how the string rides the slot. One thing we do is press string at first fret to see if the problem is at the nut. It usually is. How do we build a nut to act like a fret? Am I mistaken, or have I seen zero frets before?

This one seems well crafted and looks better -- still a ramp shape that ends with a flat and defined edge. Strangely about half string depth.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

The question in my mind is how best to make a nut that acts like a fret. A nut has to do two more jobs than a fret. Ramp down to peg, and prevent side slip due to post spacing. All, without affecting tone. Hmm. Should slots be angle towards the post?

I'm in favor of ramped slots. But if the ramp does not terminate at least a few degrees before reaching parallel with the strings path it will probably buzz.
I think the down force has to be concentrated in a small enough area to stop the string vibrations crisply.

There's one reason to have a deeper slot is that they will have less tendency to jump out of the slot... especially if the player loves bending.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Factually: Wherever you have pressure, friction, movement... You always have wear, its basic physics!

The downward angle of the string from the nut to the tuner is affected by the amount of string windings on the tuner post, so there is no perfect angle without locking tuners used correctly. Even then nothing's perfect!

As to sideways angled nut slots: On all guitars where the strings angle from the nut to the tuners, they wear sideways as well as in depth, and some more than others. To cut them sideways for looks, is pre-wearing to the extreme!

Except for the much needed downward angles at the saddle and nut, it is desirable to have the strings follow through straight from bridge pin or holder all the way through to the tuning post, without sideways angles at either the saddles or nut slots. It prevents the nut from wearing sideways, and the binding that it can cause, therefore lessening tuning problems. It restricts headstock design somewhat, but makes for a better machine.

The half high thing is not recommended for a headstock with a shallow or no angle, or heavy handed players.

Brass nuts rock! Brass cuts easy with my Japanese fret files from LMI, and they do not wear down that easy (the files nor the nuts).

To the guy who asked how to make a nut that sounds like a fret: Zero fret for sound with a nut to prevent sideways movement.

Nut wear is a bad thing in any case, on or under any instrument!

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If what you see is what you get, then Stevie Wonder ain't got nothin'!

That's right, well said David.

There is another reason and very important distinction between the violin family nuts pictured and what a guitar nut needs to be to work well. Violins are bowed instruments and as such the lashing of their strings is much less and much more controlled than say Townshend doing windmills or even Tony Rice trying to be heard over the b*njo.

For those who want to find out for yourself since that's what it may take for some and often took for me too make a nut with slots that go to 2 degrees or less at the nut face and play away and see what happens. If you get the sitar sound on open, moderately plucked strings you will likely get the picture. Remember too there are a plethora of player styles that may differ from our own so that's a consideration too when attempting to replicate the players.

Tai right you are there are players who can pull a half height string out of a half height nut slot.

Mike these are the files that we use: http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Types_of_Tools/Files/Gauged_Nut_Slotting_Files.html

The method that folks in our set-up classes will learn will be full string height slot depths but it's only one additional step if you want to shoot for half height slots. If you look at the nut in the SM pic for the files that's not by any means a half string proud slot.

For me what's FAR more important than a cosmetic issue such as how much of the string is proud of the nut slots are the following:

1) Slot spacing between the slots
2) slot spacing from edge of board
3) nut fit in channel
4) nut face at a right angle to the fret board plane
5) nut slot DEPTH... for optimal player comfort and playability
6) appropriateness of nut size and shape for specific instrument - does it look eloquent or chunky

Bob welcome to the forum! Great comments too!