Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Mon Jul 28, 2025 1:48 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 59 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:56 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:14 pm
Posts: 439
First name: Mike
Last Name: Imbler
City: Wichita
State: KS
Zip/Postal Code: 67204
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Tai Fu wrote:
So before CNC they had "pattern maker" who basically makes wooden model of stuff? I know CNC requires skill too but it doesn't seem like it anymore (download a CAD drawing, feed it to a CAM software, almost like hitting the "print" button)


You make it sound pretty easy when you say "download a CAD drawing"! That's like saying building a guitar is easy just order it from Amazon and open the box. Someone made the CAD drawing and modeling something like a guitar neck in CAD is not a trivial task,
;) Mike


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:20 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 11:03 am
Posts: 1737
Location: Litchfield MI
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I tip my hat to Andy -- we used outside engineering help to develop our CNC neck machining process. Though not a full time activity it still took almost a year before we could actually make a high quality product.

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:14 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:34 pm
Posts: 2047
First name: Stuart
Last Name: Gort
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Tai Fu wrote:
So how did they make complex shape before CNC?


Complex curves were repeatable using a "copy mill".

Essentially, a master form was prepared and by means of an attached arm...one followed over the master with a probe while the cutter followed that action over on another table.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4zuhNgtR5I

...and....lol...doing cad/cam/cnc at anything considered an advanced level represents a substantial learning curve.

_________________
I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:38 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 11:03 am
Posts: 1737
Location: Litchfield MI
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Getting a little off base here -- but since by now the consensus regarding this OP effort is perfectly clear, I'll comment on my experience with the copy router machines. First -- they do work and are pretty accurate. Second -- to do one copy at a time it is a tedious (set up and process) incredibly messy operation to the extreme. I sold ours after working with one mandolin back prototype. The end.

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:18 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:26 pm
Posts: 300
Location: United States
Back around 1980, I was the art director for a firm which produced wooden bird carvings. I made the prototype models used on a 12 position spindle carver...basically 6 spindle heads with bits mounted on either side of the pattern which a follower traced. The process was done by an operator who ran the follower over the pattern. Looking back, this would have been the perfect rig for producing guitar necks, 12 at a time. This was a very old machine that had originally been used for producing wooden artificial legs.

Wonder where that machine went when the company went out of business.

Grant


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:16 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 11:03 am
Posts: 1737
Location: Litchfield MI
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Yep -- actually saw one of these set up for guitar necks

http://www.exfactory.com/Detail.aspx?re ... &menu=used

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:34 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:04 am
Posts: 5897
First name: Chris
Last Name: Pile
City: Wichita
State: Kansas
Country: Good old US of A
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
Quote:
Yep -- actually saw one of these set up for guitar necks


It's how Fender used to do it back in the day. Don't know about now....

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:40 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:21 am
Posts: 4915
Location: Central PA
First name: john
Last Name: hall
City: Hegins
State: pa
Zip/Postal Code: 17938
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
In the old days martin did these by hand using patterns and a shaper. I can make one by hand in about 5 minutes. You will be surprised how fast and accurate you can learn to make things by hand. To slot a bridge martin used a back saw. Making holes is easy there are any number of jigs and fixtures you can use for this.
The hardest part is the radius on the top of the bridge, and even that you can learn to do by hand and eye pretty accurately. There are many things that can be done by hand and to learn how is a skill. There will be a day that these hand skill may be lost forever .

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it



These users thanked the author bluescreek for the post: Dave Rickard (Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:05 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:57 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:59 am
Posts: 1964
Location: Rochester Michigan
Tai Fu wrote:
So how did they make complex shape before CNC?


I had seen this one before but here's an episode of "How it's made" that shows some of the ways they were making complex 3D molds pre-CNC. Cool stuff

This is the whole process of making a mold for a glass lamp:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erhYJ5xA400

if you want to skip to the really 3D stuff it's here (about 2:40 in):

https://youtu.be/erhYJ5xA400?t=2m40s (URL edited because I didn't realize I had left it running when I cut and pasted before)

Kinda a lot like woodworking

_________________
http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com


Last edited by Andy Birko on Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.


These users thanked the author Andy Birko for the post: David Malicky (Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:47 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:24 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:04 am
Posts: 5897
First name: Chris
Last Name: Pile
City: Wichita
State: Kansas
Country: Good old US of A
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
Good stuff, Andy! When I worked as a tool and die maker I did conventional and CNC work, along with much handwork - grinding & polishing, etc. Never had occasion to use chisels, but I knew how from working with wood. My brother was a pattern maker, and I can tell you those guys are quite talented.

Lotta sharp people out there making the stuff that makes the world go!

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:47 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 5968
"Tai Fu wrote:
So before CNC they had "pattern maker" who basically makes wooden model of stuff? I know CNC requires skill too but it doesn't seem like it anymore (download a CAD drawing, feed it to a CAM software, almost like hitting the "print" button)"

Mike Imbler write:
"You make it sound pretty easy when you say "download a CAD drawing"! That's like saying building a guitar is easy just order it from Amazon and open the box. Someone made the CAD drawing and modeling something like a guitar neck in CAD is not a trivial task,"
;) Mike

Someday in the not too distant future it might be almost like hitting the "print" button. As CNC becomes more accessible, both machines and software, it may be possible to purchase the programs needed to cut out guitar parts and make your own kits. Electronic copies of guitar plans might morph into cad/cam files that allow the user to produce the parts for a 37' Hauser or what have you. Remember when learning DOS was required to use a PC?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:09 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:52 am
Posts: 1289
City: Lawrence
State: Kansas
Zip/Postal Code: 66047
Status: Amateur
Clay S. wrote:
Someday in the not too distant future it might be almost like hitting the "print" button. As CNC becomes more accessible, both machines and software, it may be possible to purchase the programs needed to cut out guitar parts and make your own kits. Electronic copies of guitar plans might morph into cad/cam files that allow the user to produce the parts for a 37' Hauser or what have you. Remember when learning DOS was required to use a PC?



You've got a point there Clay. During my career I ran a K&T tape machine, ran off a punch tape that ran through the reader each time a part was made, and finished my career running a Okuma cnc with conversational programing. I think 3d printing will replace machining as we know it.

_________________
Say what you do, Do what you say.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:14 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:55 pm
Posts: 3820
Location: Taiwan
First name: Tai
Last Name: Fu
City: Taipei
Country: Taiwan
Focus: Repair
Status: Semi-pro
3D printing is additive... it's not the same as machining.

Now a cheap but light CNC machine that can machine any material, that's a different matter...

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:29 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:03 am
Posts: 6680
Location: Abbotsford, BC Canada
So where are you at with the aluminum bridge Tai? Got any progress or pictures?

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:32 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:55 pm
Posts: 3820
Location: Taiwan
First name: Tai
Last Name: Fu
City: Taipei
Country: Taiwan
Focus: Repair
Status: Semi-pro
Not much now... been busy with family and school related stuff. Plus I need a suitable block of aluminum and I don't want to order just one piece, so if I can find it locally in Austin it would be great...

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:48 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:03 am
Posts: 6680
Location: Abbotsford, BC Canada
Go to these guys and ask them if the have a 2' long piece of 1/2"x1-1/2" aluminum flat bar, I'm sure they'll get you something quick and easy. That's a place to start.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:50 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:52 am
Posts: 1289
City: Lawrence
State: Kansas
Zip/Postal Code: 66047
Status: Amateur
Tai Fu wrote:
3D printing is additive... it's not the same as machining.


If you print the part net or machine from a solid you still end up with the part.
It is additive as apposed to subtractive part manufacturing.

_________________
Say what you do, Do what you say.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:52 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:55 pm
Posts: 3820
Location: Taiwan
First name: Tai
Last Name: Fu
City: Taipei
Country: Taiwan
Focus: Repair
Status: Semi-pro
thanks, I will need to check them out. I think I can bus there tomorrow.

As for 3D printing you can't 3D print metal parts without some serious equipment, and you can't print wooden parts either. Only way there is machining them out of a solid block.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:57 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:52 am
Posts: 1289
City: Lawrence
State: Kansas
Zip/Postal Code: 66047
Status: Amateur
Thats right you can't 3d print wooden parts.
3d printing metal like your aluminum bridge is being done and home use is just a few years down the road.

_________________
Say what you do, Do what you say.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:00 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:55 pm
Posts: 3820
Location: Taiwan
First name: Tai
Last Name: Fu
City: Taipei
Country: Taiwan
Focus: Repair
Status: Semi-pro
By the way, I just ordered a K40 Chinese 40 watt laser cutter.... going to use it for cutting out precision parts and stuff.

Question is, can you cut shell with a laser? That was one thing I was thinking of...

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:13 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:03 am
Posts: 6680
Location: Abbotsford, BC Canada
There've been a few threads over the years here regarding lasers and cutting shell. If memory serves correct, laser and shell do not mix well....the shell tends to explode... again this is based off my memory of threads here on the OLF...I could certainly be wrong though. Do a search for shell and laser and see what comes up.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:59 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:15 pm
Posts: 110
Location: South Bend IN U.S.A.
First name: Bob
Last Name: English
City: South Bend
State: IN
Country: U.S.A.
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Tai,

As part of my apprentice as an Industrial electrician in Germany, I was taught how to make parts out of steel by hand. With files, hack saws, scribes and other measuring tools from raw stock. We did not just make crude shapes with few details, but highly accurate, functional parts with mechanical attributes. Our only machines were a drill press, and a few belt and disc sanders that were only for more rapid stock removal, not accuracy. We made rectangular holes through blocks, complex inner and outer radii, and accurate fittings... Some of which a milling machine with all the attachments can not handle.

So it is possible, but not as easy to explain because there are so many techniques and methods involved that it took us weeks to learn and months to get right. Some never got it, and lessened their chances of graduating, and some even gave up [uncle] and moved on to less challenging professions. After 4 months of filing until we could hardly move our blistered hands [xx(] , they transferred us to the machine shop, to learn the same thing in easier ways and less hand work [headinwall] . It still took a lot of time to learn, but the finished products were done much faster. Once on the job in my new profession you did not waste time making anything, you ordered a new one :D . On occasion those skills did, and for me still do come in handy though, as I still don't have any major machines :cry: .

Now with CNC's You can pop out some really complex doohicky's in mere minutes, but not before facing a whole different set of challenges, like learning a CAD software for months only to stumble upon it's limitations, and starting all over with another program and there are still compatibility issues between programs... Then there is the CAM software, and learning the machine and their issues. It can take months just figuring out what all you will need specific to your applications, and spending limits.

You can also make the first one by hand with cast resins, files... and then get it into the machine with a 3D scanner or probing attachments, and still have a steep learning curve.

It is much easier, way less time consuming and less expensive to design something crudely on paper, with all of the measurements in place, and paying someone else with the experience and gadgetry to turn it into a working model, while you spend your time earning money.

_________________
If what you see is what you get, then Stevie Wonder ain't got nothin'!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:49 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:55 pm
Posts: 3820
Location: Taiwan
First name: Tai
Last Name: Fu
City: Taipei
Country: Taiwan
Focus: Repair
Status: Semi-pro
I just visited Westbrook Metals and got all these for 5 dollars plus tax...

a 2 foot section of 1/2" x 1.5" cold rolled steel (I'm going to do some tests on it)

a 1 foot section of 1" x 1/2" 6061 as well as a piece of 1/2" x 3" of 6061 that's a few inches longer....

I will just need to figure out a way to cut these pieces to size. I don't have a bandsaw.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:55 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:02 am
Posts: 3272
Location: The Woodlands, Texas
First name: Barry
Last Name: Daniels
Have a hacksaw?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:57 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:55 pm
Posts: 3820
Location: Taiwan
First name: Tai
Last Name: Fu
City: Taipei
Country: Taiwan
Focus: Repair
Status: Semi-pro
I do, but it's tiring to cut through that much material. I'm thinking of using a 1/4" carbide end mill to cut it... I need to cut the aluminum (and steel) to length as well as "rip" cuts on the 3" wide aluminum.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 59 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: meddlingfool and 13 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com