Official Luthiers Forum!

I believe a big part of being successful in this business - whether builder, repair person, or supplier - is seeing difficult customers coming and being able to sidestep them with professional courtesy and respect. If you don't they will simply eat all your time and patience. Learning to trust your judgement when your gut says 'this guy is gonna be trouble' is a big part of that... IMO if you can sense trouble and still agree to a deal then that's on you just as much as the 'bad' customer.

Yes, it's learned and you have to step in it once or twice to get it. Once you get it, it is your call as to whether you will build for that person. You don't have to be nice about it at all. This is not selling cars. This is building something for someone that is in your heart, to their specs. The rule is: Never piss off your builder.
Most of us mandolin builders did talk to each other and we knew who the crazies were. We kept each other well informed.
I was never happier than when I finally finished a 4 year backlog. After that I swore, no more than one commission a year. The rest of the time was mine and I built whatever I wanted. They went up on consignment and were sold.

Of course, everybody wants stuff for free and if you don't ask - you don't get....

The change order strategy is one that winnows out the dreamers and OCD botherers from the paying customers....

Another thing to do is a notification that with any change request - work on their unit stops until the decision is made whether or not to proceed. The notification includes a re-schedule of the delivery date....

Another strategy I have seen people in other custom industries do is:
Whenever you call/visit to bother me and I have to stop work, go find your stuff, and answer your questions - your work goes to the back of the line..... This can be very helpful with the folks who want to stop by and spend an hour talking to you every single day, send you 10 emails a day about this or that, or call you all the time to discuss this or that whim...

The idea behind this stuff isn't so much as a money making strategy like it is with say a construction company - but a way to force customers to prioritize and to think about the consequences of their actions... As Hesh would say "To put skin into the game"... Is this thing they want SO important that they are willing to pay extra for it? Sometimes it is - and they want it so bad that they will pay for it... Other times - they realize No - I don't really want it bad enough to pay for it.... This is especially critical when the requested work will require rebuilds, new purchases, or re-fabrication of components... Like for example, changing the peghead veneer or inlays AFTER it has already been installed on the neck.

Additionally - when the philosophy is that work stops when they come in to talk with you about this or that during "Business hours" - you are forcing the customer to intentionally decide whether what they want is important enough to "Bother you" because each time they bother you about this new whim - work stops for 2 weeks.

Another way I have seen is a "Weekly update" call or whatever - to soothe people that their stuff isn't in a black hole and answer questions that come up - but additional inquiries will require work stoppage....

In the end - you have to figure out strategies that work for you...

Thanks

This seems to have been discussed thoroughly already, but it is so close to an experience of mine i feel compelled to share.
When I was a young attorney just starting out, I had an older judge friend who asked me how I was doing. No so well, was the truth. He told me I wouldn't start making money until I learned to fire my clients.
I thought he was nuts, but I smiled and thanked him. EVERYBODY else was telling me to keep my fees down, volunteer, and especially take all comers. "Don't be too full of yourself," my father told me constantly.
Then an attorney friend of mine told me he was closing shop and filing bankruptcy. Before he could, he had to get rid of his clients. He told them that if they wanted him to seriously try to resolve their cases he would make one last stab at a reasonable settlement. If they wanted to keep pursuing some unrealistic, vindictive, or ego based fight they needed to find new counsel.
The punch line was that he never closed his shop and didn't have to file bankruptcy. "Firing" the clients who were lost in some kind of ego based dispute (and who also notoriously never paid their bill because they are the "victims") allowed him to focus on the clients with solvable problems. He was more effective, made more money, and worked less.
I learned then that my judge friend was right. As a lawyer 80% of clients are bad news, and when you are struggling to pay bills it is hard to send so many away. But, whenever I stray from this rule, I end up working more for less money.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not trying to be disagreeable here but I strongly disagree with strategies such as change orders, using uncharging as a punitive quote, etc.

If it comes to pass that you don't want to deal with someone tell them to get the heck out of your face and shop!

The last thing that you want to do is to enable anyone who you deem unworthy for doing business deals with to waste even more of your time... Asking them questions, sending them notifications, continuing dialogue as if you are on board with doing anything for them very much sends the wrong message and also sets incorrect expectations.

If it is the case that you are done with someone tell them, plain and simple. That's very much what I do and our door has been shown to a select few in the past and will be again.

Don't get me wrong here this is not Hesh being a jerk and pushing out his chest and acting like a tough guy....

I did deals and contracts all of my life and even professionally taught negotiations, anatomy of deals, etc. to thousands of very high level sales and marketing people who's least expensive sale was always well over $1M.

Setting expectations is important, an understatement... and if you position yourself as a man (or woman) of little action and lots of talk, administration, change orders, uncharge invoices, etc. that's likely what you will receive from the client - lots of BS.

If someone can't do business to your terms AND they are problematic or deemed so going forward you are doing them a favor sending them away at the earliest opportunity. It's not at all about being a prick or a tough guy or displaying ego in not needing the deal but it is very much about shielding your organization even if it's just you from unwanted liability.

I often will not even physically touch a client instrument when discussing it until I decide that I'm game to help, the value that I provide is what the client is looking for, and the client is not a Poppa raper from the group W bench. Touching their instrument is psychologically tacit approval that I want to work for them....

I cannot be more strong in my assertion that what ever business you are in, what ever you do, what every value you provide you MUST control the transaction and set the stage for how you wish things to go. Continuing to enable a time waster only serves to result in your time (and productivity..) being wasted and productivity and time are perishable things and the client ultimately ending up unhappy as well.

Control your deals!

Perfect!!! This is what I am trying to convey - thanks for posting this!

In this case it's very clear that the energy sucker not only wastes your time they can bankrupt you too and all that this may mean to you and yours.

It's important to understand this and be selective in terms of clients especially in the Lutherie business where we have a dependency on the disposable income of others. If push comes to shove, a job is lost who do you think is going to get paid you or the client's mortgage holder....

We bend over backwards for our clients and believe that if we touch it we own it and have to make it right regardless of the impact on us. As such one has to be both a bit skilled in knowing when and were to direct your efforts as well as not being adverse to declining bad business when ever it comes your way.

You know too my personal revulsion to the entire idea of building on a commission basis is not without personal, first hand experience. After I produced the Black Tiger I had lots of contact from folks who wanted me to build something for them. In nearly every case what they wanted was some weird-arse nightmare of a 9 string or something with their name inlayed in huge letters on the fret board. It was Buck Owens red, white, and blue guitar time for me if I wanted it. These highly customized someone else's nightmare of an instrument also have far more risk if the deal goes south. It's pretty hard to sell an instrument to someone when it has huge letters and someone else's name on it....

Not a chance, I built what I was interested in, kept paring away at my list of priorities to experience and learn with my own building and if someone wanted them great, if not next.

Truly.
No one is part of your life unless you let them be.

Had a client once walk in about noon... had just signed a record deal. He had $2000 cash and wanted me to stop everything and build him a new guitar RIGHT EFFIN NOW from all the painted bodies and necks I had hanging on the wall. When I told him "No, I have a shop full of repair work right now", he went ballistic, called me every name in the book - never coming back, and neither are my pals - that sort of thing. He kept shaking that money and running his mouth for a half hour. Believe me when I say, I did not cry when he never darkened my door again.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

I am not yet a good enough builder to sell anything, and if I ever do start selling, it will be as a side thing, not as a main source of income. So, if I ever do sell, I am glad I will have the ability to stay away from commissioned work. I see it as a process that has a lot of built-in frustrations and perils for both sides. I'm glad some of you can navigate those waters successfully, but I don't need to, and I would rather not try.

Being a lawyer puts me in touch with enough difficult people to suit me. No more of those in my life than absolutely necessary, please.