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 Post subject: Re: Chinese Guitars
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2015 1:26 pm 
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Koa
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This is one of the most painful topics to me. I really do see our policies for trade to be the single biggest factor in the dismantling of the American middle class. The whys and hows are for a different forum. Suffice it to say that there is nothing inherent about being Mexican or Chinese that renders a man incapable of making a fine instrument. There is no reason beautiful craft instruments can't come out of either country.

Chinese guitars are cheap because, in large part, that is part of a larger Chinese economic strategy. From personal experience I know that if you have a good for export and can undercut manufacturing in Europe or the US with these goods the government in China will do WHATEVER it takes to ensure you can dominate that market. Eastman would not exist in China without Party support. I don't know exactly what, but I can imagine:

1) the World scoured for choice woods and provided to them at cost or for free.
2) free or near free factory location. The existing inhabitants were likely "asked" to move elsewhere.
3) free or near free electricity. Neighboring communities may go without any power, but an export factory will have all it needs.
4) poisons or waste (of which in guitar making there are admittedly few) allowed to be dumped on neighbors with no redress.
5) equipment brought in from US or Europe and provided at cost or less.
6) workers who were "asked" to move from somewhere else brought to work for pennies.

If there is a desire in the Party to undercut the high end of the market (and not just Gibson, Taylor, Martin), I have no doubt that guitars as nice as any craft guitars we produce will be coming out of China. If we hobbyist can spend a decade or so tinkering in a garage can make the beautiful guitars I see on this forum, imagine what could be done if you life literally depended on it.

I also don't blame the consumer. They are presented with a choice of a real Gibson for as much as $10,000 (L-5s) or an Eastman for $1,500 that competes pretty well. You would have to be really committed to the slightly better quality to pay eight times as much. Distressingly, I am seeing more and more professional jazz guitar players with an Eastman in their hands.

Is anyone in this country willing to let the government (or worse yet one Party) commandeer their shop so that someone else can do an export business? Let them dump poison on your children's playground or your favorite fishing river so that they could undercut a foreign manufacturer? Forcibly remove you from your family farm and give you the choice of 60hours a week in a factory or starvation? Because that is what it is going to take to compete.

If we are not willing to stoop to that level, if we believe that all men have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, then why the hell are we letting these goods into our country?


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese Guitars
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2015 1:59 pm 
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Koa
Koa

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Location: Litchfield MI
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It is a complex and distressing subject to say the least --- but all the bad s*** mentioned above is deep and far reaching. I still have to wonder though, if the new item release lines at the Apple store would be any shorter if all those enthusiasts knew what went on at the China iphone Foxconn factory. I suspect many do but they could care less -- maybe not. Here's one tidbit --- nets were installed to prevent workers from killing themselves by jumping out the windows!

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese Guitars
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2015 10:33 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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The other side of this is that the Chinese economy has been growing by leaps and bounds... Labor costs many times what it did 20 years ago.... Chinese folks now want "Modern" amenities like cell phones, cars, nice houses, families, and education that they just couldn't get 25 years ago... There have been riots inside China as the fellows searching for nearly free slave labor are moving plants out of China and into North Korea, Burma, and North Vietnam - where they can "pay" workers with food, housing, and basic medical care...

The thing that has disappointed me is that the American companies haven't been quick to even understand that the game has changed... They are still used to a post WWII business model - where nobody else in the world has "Modern" industrial capacity to make things because it all got destroyed in a giant war.... and as such - there was basically unlimited demand for whatever we can supply... It didn't matter what we did or how we managed our businesses - we were going to make money hand over fist - and we did....

That world is gone and we are still casting about wondering what happened.... What happened is that the rest of the world rebuilt and we now have competition.... Management is talking about it - but they aren't making the fundamental changes to the way they manage businesses... They are still trying to manage businesses as if they are in mature, captive markets OR to rape and pillage then run.... Neither of those result in long term improvements to our infrastructure or economy...

And so our guitars and everything else will be made somewhere else...

Thanks



These users thanked the author truckjohn for the post: Glenn_Aycock (Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:28 am)
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 Post subject: Re: Chinese Guitars
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:55 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:34 am
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The Chinese are as Capitalist as we are as are almost all others.
This is about the Uber wealthy that have no countries anymore. We are pawns in their game. Read Jack London's "The Iron Heel" sometime and you will find that history is just repeating itself...as it always does.


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese Guitars
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:20 am 
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Walnut
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Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2015 12:12 pm
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First name: Andrew
Last Name: Pohlman
City: Pinole
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 94564
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I recently had an experience with Goyette guitars in Folsom, CA. He sells exclusively classicals. He has hooked up with the former head of the guitar program at Chico State University, lending gravitas and credibility to his brand name. Mr Goyette uses three Chinese Master Luthiers, the top dude being Yulong Guo. His claim is something like, "World class guitars for thousands of dollars less." I went to his home/shop, a 1.5 hour drive, and played 4 guitars. All had superb, crystalline trebles with massive sustain. Great articulation. Choice overtones. Loud as a brass band! However, basses were so weak I had to romp on them simultaneously backing off in I, M, and A to achieve balance. They looked like they were built very well. The action was suspiciously high... I went home and after trying other classicals at Guitar Center, I decided to give the Goyette brand a try.

The instrument he shipped me had medium action and the D string was buzzing badly. Leveling? Nut? Then I noticed the real problem: multiple frets were not seated properly. When I called him, he could not replace the guitar as it was the last one of it's type in stock, so I just returned it for my money back.

In my discussion with him, he was shocked such a problem existed, and said, "I've never had a problem with this luthier before." Then he went on to say how his Master Luthiers randomly changed headstock shape (the Goyette signature) which drove him crazy, randomly changed rosettes, and downgraded tuners without notice. So, um, yeah, he's never had a problem before ....

Now, I truly believe Mr Goyette is an honest and ethical fellow. But he is far too nice a fellow to be dealing with people who shirt-tail his builds onto larger runs for other companies (my guess as to the cause of the random changes). Also, if his Master Luthiers (newbie apprentices?) are cutting corners, like not bothering to seat frets, what else did they do that is not so visually obvious?

Now, cheap Chinese guitars are one thing. But to pay in the $2K range, there should be no basic defects at all, of any kind! I bought a Delfy for $215 as my beater guitar for picnics and such. I found that it was actually built better than the Goyette Master hand-built. It's too inarticulate for Flamenco, but hey, $215... I could get the action down as tight as my Rodriguez Flamenco with no issues at all!

Bottom line for me, I don't yet trust the consistency and/or quality control of Chinese guitars. Nor do I trust Chinese ethics. But I'm the first to admit, they are on a glide curve of continual improvement.

_________________
If thee meddle with dragon kin, thou will become crunchy and good with ketchup.


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese Guitars
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:03 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
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There are at least several resellers who import Chinese guitars into the states and then set them up as well as they can and sell them.

I've seen these marketed as the easiest guitar to play in the world...... and as US made when often neither claim is true...

We had one in a couple of months ago what was like this and when the new owner found out that it was not US made he asked us to take it and trash it. We instead fixed it up and gave it to a homeless guy who sings like Kurt Cobane... and the client felt better about it knowing that someone would love it.

Then there are the Estabans...... nuff said here, don't want to puke this early in the morning.... :)

Quality is not usually the issue with Chinese instruments. Instead they use unserviceable glues that will not release with heat and unserviceable neck joints aka the dowelled neck joint so come neck reset time one is SOL.

OTHO Chinese instruments are dramatically improving, Blue Ridge, Eastman, etc. and can represent some real value.... for a while....

And of course a $125 Chinese Yamaha is still an excellent first guitar to see if the interest lasts and they play and sound pretty good for $125.

There is a place for Chinese guitars in the world and more and more US Luthiers have been on the ground over there teaching them some of the things that we learned from the US guitar making industry such as building to be serviceable.

Chinese guitars are a reality and not only can be good values they permit players to go places that they couldn't prior in terms of having more niche instruments that previously were not affordable for them. An $1,800 Eastman arch top IMHO out shines a $4,000 G*bson often these days....

I have no beef with Chinese instrument makers besides it's reality but I do have a beef with certain US manufactures who are riding on a good name earned long ago as they continue to let the quality slide out the door. We invented this industry in a major way and it won't be the fault of the Chinese if we let our competitive advantages such as quality, serviceability, etc. fall by the way side....

Makes me wonder what Chinese guitar makers say about us too..... ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese Guitars
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:02 am 
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Contributing Member
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Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:05 am
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Location: Saint Petersburg, Florida
First name: Glenn
Last Name: LaSalle
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I have a number of very nice Luthier Built, as well as vintage, guitars. When I was looking for a guitar I could use for vacations, travel etc, i wanted a nice guitar that sounded good, but didn't want to spend a lot of money (and wouldn't get upset if it got trashed in the travels). I bought a Blue Ridge OM, all solid woods, EI RW, etc, Paid 400 bucks for it a number of years ago. It plays and sounds pretty darn good! Certainly meets all my needs I wanted in the guitar.

As in anything, harsh generalities don't serve us well. A lot of crap Chinese guitars, some good ones. Just like anything else in the world, do your research, and choose wisely.

Glenn


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese Guitars
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:25 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Last Name: Cox
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The old saying goes "They aren't built like they used to be".... The reality is that they never were....

If have inherited a bunch of old stuff... Looked over far more in "antique" stores.... The fact of the matter is that most of this old "American" stuff isn't particularly well made... The fact that it was handed down over years is simply an indication that it wasn't destroyed and the economic status of the people... Not the ultimate quality of the stuff.... I keep Grandma's dining room set around because it was Grandma's - not because it's quality can compete with modern stuff...

Then as now - the handful of pieces that are left represent the "Best" of the stuff - not the average.... There's a reason that the majority ended up in the dump.

It's the same reason you don't see the musical universe littered with old Silvertones and Kay guitars.. They all went to the dump... They were horrible guitars - in fact, most make those $99 Chinese guitars look and play like Martins... The difference is that these "Evil" Chinese are at least nominally "Listening" to the markets - and aren't shipping (many) guitars out with wonky necks, mis-cut fretboards and horrible intonation, not to mention 1/4" thick plywood tops...

Personally.. I am not crying about that... What does frustrate me is the "American Management Culture".... It's not that we can't compete - it's that we won't run the businesses the way they need to be run....

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Chinese Guitars
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:43 am 
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Koa
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truckjohn wrote:
Personally.. I am not crying about that... What does frustrate me is the "American Management Culture".... It's not that we can't compete - it's that we won't run the businesses the way they need to be run....

Thanks


Yeah, and also we won't run our country like they run theirs. It's not cheap because they have magic fingers, its cheap because they have a totalitarian government willing to sacrifice anyone and anything to undercut manufacturing in the US and Europe, and to reward certain party members with the fruits of their efforts. Remember that Ferrari now sell more cars in China that in Italy, and they ain't going to factory workers.

Hesh wrote:
Makes me wonder what Chinese guitar makers say about us too..... ;)


I don't know about guitar makers, but I once went to China with a Latin American client. You should have heard what they said about the US when they thought none of us were from there. In a nutshell, I heard how we were fools with money coming out of our ears. Babies with the keys to a fortune. We were so greedy, arrogant and short sighted that we were easy marks.

The example was given by Droidiphile and his experience with Goyette. How naive must someone like Goyette be to think he can travel 5,000 miles to place and culture you know nothing about (I'm assuming, but I doubt I'm wrong) find craftsmen who do not have a tradition of guitar making and expect them to build him master grade guitars in his absence? Does he really think they don't know that he is going to sell the guitars for two or three (or ten) times what he is paying them? He's literally asleep in his bed when the guitars are being made, and he's surprised when they make multiple other deals and mass produce his guitars right along with others? When they show him craftsmen in a workshop on his obligatory "factory tour" and then actually have starving peasants with no training make the guitars in a sweatshop somewhere else? When they rip off his design? When they substitute cheaper materials when he isn't looking? When they cut corners while he's asleep?

And what exactly does he expect he could do even if he wasn't asleep and found out what was really going on? Sue them? IN CHINA? laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe

What he will do, until he wipes out, is support a totalitarian regime. He will make it harder for craftsmen in this country to make a living. He will further distort what the consumer in the US thinks a guitar is, what it takes to make one, and what it costs.

Can the Chinese make high quality instruments? Of course they can! Can they make high quality instruments without the subsidies, backing and support of a repressive totalitarian government and still be a quarter of the cost? Of course not. Chinese goods aren't cheap because there is some magic in China. They are cheap because they don't play by our rules and we refuse to admit it or do anything about it. As long as Qingdao is willing to pay Henry Juszkiewicz millions in royalties he will be happy to lay off workers, close factories, and use his political clout to make sure our government obediently lowers its undies and bends over.


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