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Lucky all bindings, top braces (or most of them) and soundboard glue blocks are hide glue. Some endblocks might be hide, not sure I used interchangeably. Again, the hide FB (1/4) and hide bridges ( 3/4) do not show signs of separation.

Two guitars have back braces with fish and these have the smoothest belly. I suspect the glue let go and the back smoothly expanded over the brace. The rosewood guitar has hide glue braces and those horrible bulges which makes me think the brace is still on. It also makes me think that once they will be dry, the fish braces will not be attached to the back anymore.

Overnight in 60%, all guitars are 6-7 grams lighter already.

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Build log

The fact that he owns a hygrometer that shows the RH% allllllllll day long before, during and after he moved in, before he removed them from cases and hung them on the walls, before he got a dehumidifier and a heater to dry out a second story room of the house screams owner abuse.

My god, the amount of things he could have done to prevent that are pretty ridiculous. Anyone who owns high end guitars should know a few simple things about guitar storage and what is/isn't appropriate. If he wasn't sure or even mildly concerned he should have given you a call.

That said I'll be going with titebond for bridges and fretboards unless I decide to switch to hide glue. That won't be happening any time soon though

Leaving alone the hygrometer but the guitars really look bad and you can easily feel the ebony sticking out from the neck shaft. He played them regularly and even took one to a gig a few days ago. I am also sure that bridge was lifting for a couple weeks before letting go, just like the FB is slowly lifting. Oh well.

On hide glue for FB and bridge, I delayed using them for years fearing I might not be fast enough. I started using it for bridges last year and for FBs this year and in both cases it was much easier that I imagined. Heat both surfaces with a hair dryer for a few minutes, make the glue really hot (up to 70 C) use a big brush to vigorously paint a solid amount on both surfaces, mate them (use locating pins) and with no stress and no rush just start clamping. Don't over tighten. Wait 15 minutes then peel off and scrub the squeeze out. The cleaning is a pleasure and unlike other glues you are really cleaning not smearing it around. This technique works well as this experience has showed, both hide FBs and bridges are still in place with no separation signs.

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Build log

Taiwan has consistently high RH and I never had problems with fish drying, though it does take quite a while. I've only started using fish glue used it on the dovetail/fingerboard extension on my last build. I hope it's not something I'll regret. I just like using fish because of the long open time. I've found it too stressful to glue dovetails with hide because it takes a while to tighten and position the clamp, and have switched to titebond to make things easier. However not everyone likes titebond, particularly if I restore vintage instruments.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

He actually knows guitar building quite well on a theoretical level, and knew what glue I used and that it doesn't like wet environments.

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Build log

I have the opposite experience with titebond when it comes to removal. I find titebond to release more cleanly compared to hide glue. Titebond turns really soft when heated and it's easy to slip a knife between the pieces for removal, but hide doesn't let go as easily, not getting quite as soft and sometimes needs a little moisture to help it get soft. As for steaming the neck, I find absolutely no difference between hide and titebond. Titebond does require cleanup after removal but with respect to ease of removal, it was no different.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Seriously under that condition the only thing that will protect the guitar from damage is epoxy. However good luck doing a neck reset on that...

I don't think it was the choice of glue, but the owner's neglect.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Y'all are missing the point. Yes, the damage is the guitar -owner's- fault, but the point put forth here is that the only joints adversely affected were the fish glue and Titebond joints. The hot hide glue joints held. Yes, this is an extreme example of abuse, but build enough instruments, and some of them will get abused, and some will accidentally be exposed to extreme humidity. It's great to know, from a real-world experience, which glues hold-up and which don't.

Thanks for sharing your experience with us.

Might be a bit early to judge Hide. I have a feeling it withstands high humidity better but we don't know the long term consequences. The wood has obviously been placed under a fair amount of stress for that type of distortion to occur. Not sure I would trust even Hide under those conditions or trust the rest of the Guitar. Sometimes wood can distort and it never recovers back to it's original shape. Tops and Backs that are truly built flat are like that. They tend to sink a little even with the slightest humidity change (no string tension) and they never seem to recover, even in much higher humidity.

Grumpy has hit it in the head.

I do not feel myself guilty here, especially since the owner is very knowledgeable about guitar building and knew I have used fish extensively in my earlier guitars and that it is not a high humidity tolerant glue.

However the support showed by everyone hearing the story has warmed my broken heart for a bit, so thank you everyone!!

I am currently building a guitar for myself and have not rushed to redo the stuff I already did with fish. I also have 2 rosettes already done with fish which I am not going to throw away.

I would definitely be at fault if I'd send a fish guitar to the Far East and not warn the customer about what their weather can do....

For the exposed guitars, we are looking at 4 by me and 3 Amalio Burguets which were made with synthetic glue but I couldn't know what brand. 2 guitars are in 1 piece, the third is losing the FB. This same guitar lost it's bridge a while ago for no particular reason so I suspect there were different glues used. Amalio was really surprised and when it happened asked my friend if there are FB problems as well. This was 1 y ago.

Also these 3 Burguets seem to show less plate distortions and I suspect they were built in more than 50% humidity.

Anyway the real point is that indeed when you have enough of them out there, abuse will happen. I said I'm done with fish not because it is bad but because abuse does happen and I have 0 pleasure in doing repairs, especially not on mine. In the end I'm OK with someone else's work, but to work on mine it is heart breaking.

And some good news: although I don't see any visual improvement after 1 1/2 days, they are coming back to life when I tap them! Weight loss: about 15 grams.

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Build log

And the bad news: we have a small crack on the Indian rosewood. A bit strange this one, has the worst plate distortions (I think I braced both top and back at 40%) but the least ebony separation and distortion (maybe better quartering on the ebony, or less on the neck) and also the least tail separation, which I think is thanks to the spruce endblock.

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Build log

Huh, braced at 40% and cracked at 60%? I wonder if the joints moved when wet and then re-set in a different position...

Quite the tragic tale here. I think I'll stick with hide glue. Back attachment is indeed one of the most difficult tasks for it. I use spool clamps, and go a few inches at a time. But I think I'm not getting maximum joint strength, as a result of peeling some of the glued area back open when squeezing glue into the next section. All 3 of my unbound backs have popped various spots when subjected to major humidity stress (both high and low), but none of the bound ones have. Easy to reglue, but not good for selling. Next time I'll try sticking a hot spatula in the gap just before clamping an area for the last time.

I do agree that the situation of this thread was the owner's fault, but I also believe in making guitars as abuse-tolerant as possible. If you want them to be around 100 years from now, you gotta assume they won't be perfectly cared for every single day. I've mostly focused on the low end, considering the 20% humidity in here right now, but I do need to do some stress testing on the high end as well. So far, building in 30-35% seems to tolerate 20%-70% pretty easily. But 80-90%, I'm not so sure...

Dennis, quickly drying wood can crack even if unbound. I did a expansion measurement test on ebony, kept it in high humidity (from 45% to 80% for 2 days) and then I took it back in the dry shop. The next day I found it split right in 2.

As for hide, when you open the next section, paint glue over the "old" one too. If its hot enough it works by re-softening the already jelled part. I do exactly the same when installing hide binding. Brush glue say on 10cm, rope it for 7cm, open up, paint another 10 (3+7) and so on.

Should work the same for the back. I use go bars. My only concern is that because of the bracing I wont be able to open it up enough when approaching the final sections. I'll need to do a try test and brush air

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Build log

But this isn't simply abuse, this is a case of serious abuse. Two types of glue, two different Guitar makers - similar outcome. And we still aren't completely sure how the Hide glue (the Guitar, the wood) is going to fair over the long term.
I've had Guitars in environments of 70% Humidity for days. I somehow suspect that the problem here is a little different. They have been subjected to an environment of continuous high Humidity over a lengthy period of time, possibly without any or little air flow in the room. Not too dissimilar to my basement. As an experiment I've taken my Hygrometer and tested it in an upstairs room. It's reading 50% RH. Same Hygrometer has been placed in my basement for 30 minutes and it's already reading 70%. Give it another 30 minutes and it may well be over 80% - I'll check. The point is that you can build for mild abuse but serious abuse is really beyond any Guitar maker. There's an awful lot of Guitars out there that have been built with PVA.
I say all this from the safety of using HHG for the vast majority of my joints, including the Back. I use a hot iron and heat through the edges of the Back, applying spool clamps as I go. You just need to be a little careful over the end blocks.
The only time I use Fish is on laminated Backs and V head/Neck joints.

FWIW, Dana Bourgeois has stated that fish glue is the only glue that will hold for gluing bridges to his new aged tops.....

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

His new age tops must be incredibly effective. We can still use HHG on instruments that are over 350 years old!
My hygrometer is at 82% RH and still rising. I've decided to remove it from the basement. I've come to the conclusion that it's suffered enough abuse down there.

So is it better to have the wood fail or the joint fail? My vote would be the joint. I haven't tried using fish glue and I am happy enough with hot hide and titebond, but it does seem like it would have some advantages for some things.

Alexandru,
If you don't like doing repair work (not my forte either) then perhaps you should pass them back and have the owner send them to someone who specializes in repairs. It definitely being the owners fault I would not feel any obligation to do the rebuilds. As Filippo said, these may have ongoing problems that are not evident at this time. An honest repair cost may be close to the original price of the instruments, which as the builder you may be reluctant to charge.
All the best, and good luck with the guitars.

I had a customer return a guitar that had been in a flood to me for repair. The hide glue joints failed where the wood had swollen and pushed away from the joint. A Titebond joint with no tension or pressure failed outright like the piece just floated away. I tested the unbroken hide glue joints with pressure and decided that they were good. I cleaned up and reglued all joints that failed and replaced the back--it was easier than unwarping and uncracking the wood. What I learned was that Titebond succumbs to water. I'm not changing any practices. I use Titebond on joints where it doesn't matter or where I want some flexibility and hide glue everywhere else. I don't build for floods. I am imagining on Alexandru's guitar that the high humidity coupled with a drop in temperature may have produced some condensation in the instrument cases (and in the instruments) that resulted in actual humidity far above 80%. We have some pretty humid summers here in Virginia and it has never caused any damage to any of my instruments although the action does rise perceptibly sometimes. I had one other come back that had been left out in the rain--the damage was similar to the flooded guitar.

I'm not even sure why water resistance should be built into guitars... they aren't meant to be taken to scuba dives or the shower.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I'm not even sure why water resistance should be built into guitars... they aren't meant to be taken to scuba dives or the shower.


Because sh!t happens... To ignore that fact is to live with your head buried in sand.

There are countless famous examples of bad things(accidents, floods, very quick temperature and/or humidity changes when flying/traveling, and so forth...) happening to great instruments.

I know that, but no woodworking glue except for epoxy will prevent damage in any of those circumstances (well except for the quick temp. and humidity changes while traveling), but as soon as you epoxy everything together your guitar can't be repaired at all. I just don't think it's fair to blame the glue, and there's a reason why repairmen exist.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Assuming everything is restored or resolved, have you talked to the owner about addressing the humidity problem? Even for those instruments that did not come apart they are experiencing the same stresses and will eventually show damage or malfunction. Additionally, if you do a great deal of work, you don't want it to be for naught, if the instruments go into the same environment.

$.02 GS

Tai, I understand what you're saying, but in the spirit of this thread, we have 3 regularly used glues; Titebond, HHG, and fish. Only -one- of them held up well. No need for going overboard and using epoxy or polyurethane glues, when good 'ol HHG keeps proving, time and again, that it's the best choice for most of the joints in instrument building.

I think to say that a glue must hold up when the instrument is stored in 80% rh is asking a lot. I do not think that any instrument stored in such a manner will hold up regardless of the glue that is used. Is hhg better than other glues? Probably, but in the OP's situation the bridges may have stayed on if glued with hhg but the wood itself swelled so much that the guitar was effectively k.o.ed after being subjected to extreme conditions for an extended period of time.
That said, I was thinking of using fish for binding but I am "evolving" away from that thought.
A good question to fish glue users is under normal rh, have you noticed failures?

Hi Sam - Give David Collins a call at the shop this week, we had a few fish failures and moved away from it for bridges. Fish should be fine for bindings but I was never very keen to have to clean up fish, it can get stringy like cotton candy and makes a mess. As such I evolved away from it too... I still have arrested development with Titebond original for my bindings and no complaints so far.