Official Luthiers Forum!

Sorry for he triple shot..

Nevermind, I thought this was a newbie challange. I didn't realize you had built enough to know more than I do.
Adjusting the rod under string tension IS user error.

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A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

I'm sorry I didn't realize we were going to be jerks to each other. In that case im sure that you know much more about threads and manufacturing of metal components than I do. Creating a component that cannot withstand the pressures placed upon it IS a defective part.

Soundhole for me for reasons mentioned except for archtops. I always used to clamp necks flat when tightening the rod under tension until the repair guy at the store where I sell said "Why would you wanta do that?". He has 30 years of experience so now I don't do it so much anymore. I still feel safer doing it if I am really going to crank on one.

Another Blanchard rod fan here.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I'm surprised that I'm not dead yet seeing how many cars I've jacked up with a screw jack. I guess proper procedure would say I should lift the car before turning the screw and applying pressure. Because evidently threads cannot stand much pressure. (Rodger Knox said so and he knows everything)

Sorry, you guys can't argue unless I'm involved.

I've adjusted THOUSANDS of necks over my career as a luthier, having worked on over ten thousand instruments.

I learned early on, thousands of instruments ago, that American made Strats with the 1/8th inch adjustment nut at the headstock is virtually guaranteed to strip out if you attempt to adjust it under string tension, ESPECIALLY if you use the microscopically undersized allen wrench they provide with the instrument. Those must always be adjusted with the strings loosened, and make absolutely sure the wrench is fully seated before starting to turn. The bullet nuts from the 70's are the exception.

Pretty much everything else is designed to stand up to it. I've had no problems doing multiple adjustments with Gibsons, Martins, Guilds, Mexican Chinese and Japanese Fenders, and any of the Asian allen wrench adjustable necks (or ANY Asian guitars for that matter) with them no where NEAR beginning to strip out. Jacksons, Taylors, PRS, same thing.

Now it's Todd Stock's turn.

Todd.........

Aw crap, he responded before I could finish typing!

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Really? Second page, halfway down, multiple prior posts, seemed about the right time.

What do you think about the whole neck-adjustment-under-string-tension thing?

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Old growth, shmold growth!

The only ones I loosen are American made strats.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

What about the rest of them?

Although it seems to me the only ones I see with stripped out rods are those Strats.

The second most common problem I run into are bottomed out rods that don't adjust any further, usually really old Japanese acoustics. But they're not stripped out, just all the way tight.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Maybe I've been doing it wrong all these years but I give the neck a little "help" when I adjust the rod by holding the body down with a helper or clamp and putting gentle pressure on the headstock to take the stress out and adjusting the rod an 1/8 of a turn or less then checking over the course of a day or so. Never had an issue doing it this way. The nut turns very easily with no stress or danger of stripping.

I've been adjusting the truss rods on my guitars with the strings tensioned for 35+ years...never had an issue...then again since the neck is under tension I understand that adjustments do NOT take immediate effect, so what I do is leave the cover off and do small adjustments, play for a while, observe and tweak a little bit more, and after a while figure an equilibrium has been achieved and put the cover back on...

IMO the type of tension on a guitar neck is totally different than that on a block plane...

I bet if I ever mess one up I'll change my opinion...the biggest issue I think is using the appropriate tool and one that is not already worn thereby creating an ill fit which is bound to cause mishaps...and since I don't do repairs for a living I also have a different view on the whole issue

bingo!!!! I see no reason why a truss rod in a guitar should be made out of anything BUT high quality steel...I mean really, if auto manufacturers (who are notorious for saving pennies (which can equate to millions of dollars over a years production) every chance they have) know the necessity of using proper metals for items under torque (like head bolts, lug nuts, etc) then why can't guitar manufacturers?????

again though, if a person is a repair man then perhaps it is better to follow the safe route...and of course charge accordingly for the extra effort required...I usually do my adjustments on the fly, as it were, and not part of a complete set up, hence my strings are usually not brand spanking new at the time and are more likely to be broken soon afterwards if they are removed and put back under tension..heck even when I find it necessary to do saddle work I do said work with old strings and upon completion replace the strings..nothing worse than being on stage and having strings break because of repeated removing and such to do work on the instrument...and NO, I do not like brand spanking new strings rather ones that are about 5 days old, the point being if I have to do a rod adjustment before a gig of some sort I would be very loathe to have to pull of the strings to do so, which in my mind would require replacement of said strings to give some sort of peace of mind about breakage issues...

You adjust your planes with an allen screw? Wierd!

Anyway, the point it not that the THREADS fail, but that the ADJUSTMENT NUT strips out.

I've never encountered a thread problem, in my experience it's always the nut, or a lack of threads, not worn or stripped threads.

Floyd rose lock nuts however, now THERE'S an example of not using the right metal for the right job! Pot metal is just STUPID on a Floyd lock nut.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

A nut that is softer is a fuse in the system, IE. brass. Better strip that than the rod. Although should be easy enough to make then both better quality. Blanchard's design makes brass unnecessary. A huge help would be if the builder put some anti-seize on the threads, at the very least a little grease or heavy oil. Anti-seize would be best. I was talking to Frank Ford about this once and he agreed but said he had a hard enough time to get folks to put oil or grease on the treads, let alone anti-seize compound. If you doubt this put some oil on some of your old clamp threads and feel the difference when you are tightening under load.
Oh, I think the plane analogy is not a bad one, not deserving the belittling it got. It was an analogy, analogous to the truss rod and taking a little tension off of the neck to make it easier to tighten or loosen a nut. He didn't mean exactly the same. Also, car jack threads are cut way differently and designed to handle being tightened under load. I would say that the plane situation is more analogous to the truss rod situation than is the car jack is to the plane.
L.

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

Which was exactly my point in the previous post in which I stated there are different ways to increase the strength of threads including material, tolerances, and type of thread

I don't claim to know everything, that's why I was asking for the opinions of those that have more experience. I'm not a repair person, but I learned to do my own setups back in the '60s. I've been maintaining my own guitars for a while, and I have seen a few others. Some of them I have adjusted under string tension, electrics with lights, but they adjusted easily.
Taking the tension off is the safer method, and I believe it is necessay in some situations. It's counterproductive to promote procedures that can be problematic.
My opinion is that truss rod adjustments should be few and far between, good necks don't move around that much, so the truss rod should only need adjustment when the string gauge is changed, or to make up for 10 years of cold creep. I always check the relief, but almost never adjust it.

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A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

The problem I had was that you did not ask for opinions. You gave yours and then proceeded to attack mine due to the fact that you have built more guitars than I. You simply stated that adjusting the truss rod under string tension IS wrong. No exceptions. Which is obviously not your belief since you have stated that you have adjusted some guitars under string tension. Next time maybe you should not try to act like you are always right and attack others based on what you believe to be lack of experience. I makes you look bad, especially when you come back explaining you sometimes do what you previously stated was wrong.

AnthonyE wrote:
"In theory it should be the same idea as adjusting a block plane blade, especially the type with a lever cap screw to tighten down the blade. You should ALWAYS release the tension off the lever cap before adjusting the depth of cut. If not then you end up putting far too much pressure on the threads of the adjustment screw. "

I've been pushing hand planes for forty years, and that's the first time I've heard that one. I don't see how you can adjust the cut if you loosen the cap, since that just allows the blade to shift: all the planes I have have 'way too much backlash for that.

The same holds in it's way for truss rod adjustments, I think. I just don't see how you could get it right if you slack off the strings every time.

Its true that too many people (not on _this_ list, of course..) think that the function of the truss rod is to adjust the action height. It does, of course, but that's secondary to it's real function, which is to control the relief of the neck. I like to build in the relief that I want when there is no tension on the strings or the rod, and then adjust the rod after stringing to get the neck back to that shape. In theory that should leave you with a balance of forces on the neck; as much 'down' force from the rod as there is 'up' force from the strings. This leaves the neck purely in compression, which should allow it to remain stable. A change in the setup or the strings will, of course, necessitate another truss rod adjustment, and, in some cases, seasonal changes need to be taken into account as well, but it's not an action adjustment.

That wasn't belittling.

But he did say it was "the same idea", then he mentioned damaging the THREADS.

I was pointing out in a humorous fashion that it wasn't the threads that were typically the problem, but in fact the ADJUSTMENT nut.

That's a different idea entirely.

I guess I'm belittling you now, pointing that out.

That's not my intention.




Again, I'm not belittling you by saying that this doesn't work for most guitars. Gibson's, sure, but lately they've been making the nuts out of harder material on some models with no ill effect.

The problem is that now 90% of instruments come with double rods and the nut is welded onto the end of the rod.

The American Fender nuts are sealed into the neck with a walnut plug which has to be removed to replace the nut, but it's doable.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

I appologize to any that took offense to my post. I thought that taking tension off the rod before adjustment was standard operating procedure for all professional repair people, which does not seem to be the case. I'm an amateur, which gives me the luxurary of not maintaining professional standards.
By the way, I'm a soundhole guy, because there's less temptation to adjust the rod under tension.

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A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

I just spread the strings apart with one hand and adjust with the other.

Some allen keys also have rubber tubing on them to protect the strings.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

As do I rodger. Last week was a rough one and I was at my breaking point. Dealing with some of the people I am forced to associate with at my job had me in attack mode over anything. I think I overreacted to your post and now that Ive had a weekend to cool down I realise that . Sorry for jumping on you like that.