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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:35 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Interesting, I have used this on an instrumetn that is a little less than a year and a half old. It is pretty thin french polish, but I don't see any crazing. I'm wondering if it is softer than it should be. I don't have a ton of experience with shellac.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:19 pm 
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Here's an update the Tools For Working Wood blog:http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com//Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=NEXT&StoreCode=toolstore&nextpage=/extra/blogpage.html&BlogID=363

I like the idea of storing shellac with an oxygen absorbing packet. I have some wide mouthed 1 quart canning jars that I use to store my shellac. They have glass lids with a rubber gasket. The glass should do a good job of keeping out oxygen, but of course, every time I open the jar, I'm letting in more oxygen. The blog also mentions that prices are going up. I've noticed that.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:35 pm 
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The UK supplier with the quickest turnover has doubled the price of Blonde Shellac in the last year alone. I can still obtain it much cheaper elsewhere but it's probably old stock.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:48 pm 
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Koa
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Extend the shelf life of your Platina. Make your own oxygen absorber:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3Wvp01IiLs


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:40 pm 
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I'm getting tired of these 3 bottles of shellac on my kitchen counter, so here is how the experiment has turned out. The original problem batch has now had 72 hours to dissolve and it looks basically like thinned gelatin. The 2 that I mixed yesterday morning have had 30 hours to dissolve and they both look almost like the same thinned gelatin, but a little lumpier. One was dissolved in new 190 proof Everclear and the other was dissolved in Startex DA. They look basically identicle. I am calling this bad shellac. So I will have to get some new flakes and keep them sealed away from oxygen and hopefuuly they will last longer than these did. I can't remember where it was suggested to keep it in the fridge, but I would be nervous about moisture. I guess in a ziploc inside a sealed canning jar it would be ok.
Wendy


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:29 pm 
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I probably bought the same batch of Platina from Vijay that you did Wendy, and while it did dissolve, it has been a problem on the 2 guitars that I finished with it, to the extent that I've offered to the customers to refinish both.
I don't like the stuff and am swearing off, Kusmi seedlac only for me.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:28 pm 
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David, what kind of problem did the 2 guitars have?
Wendy


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:08 pm 
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Lifting in tiny spots, or "flaking" at the edges.
I do not believe the shellac is too old, I think it is "bad". I blame (ignorant of any facts on my part) the chemical process used to blondify the shellac.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:45 pm 
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Koa
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David, I hope that you and Wendy will discuss the problems you've had with Vijay. I think we all agree that every vendor deserves a chance to make things right. Wendy was very careful in her original post to avoid naming her supplier. I named Vijay because I recognized the description, and because I have always received excellent shellac from him. Do you have any photos of the problems you're describing? One of the things I like about shellac is its adhesion. I have never had an adhesion problem. If there has been a shortage of shellac supply in the last couple of years, and a rise in price, that would increase the motivation for short cuts, or adulteration somewhere along the supply chain. I don't have any evidence to suggest that this has happened, but it's crossed my mind. No vendor controls the entire supply chain. I think Vijay comes closest, but there are several vendors who do everything they can to supply a good product. Adulteration could happen at any stage. Clearly, the paler shellacs are more temperamental, have a shorter shelf life. If you can work entirely with seedlac, that might be safer. For me, pale shellac is a useful tool. I've never had issues with Vijay's pale shellacs, and I'll keep using them until I do. (Note: I sound like a booster here. I have no connection with Vijay's business, and I receive no discounts. I've had so many issues with shellac from other suppliers, that I want to ensure he gets a fair shake.)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:29 am 
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Eric, you are right, I was careful not to name the supplier because 1)I didn't think it was a problem with the shellac, but rather a problem with the way it was stored or mixed, and 2) I don't think it's fair to bring a supplier's name up here unless they have actually done something wrong or not been willing to make something right. I am not saying that Vijay is at fault, and I will probably buy from him again. I also intend to email him and let him know the situation, I have only been waiting to see how my experiment came out. After the experiment it is obvious that the shellac has gone bad. Notice I said "gone bad", because I have had no problems whatsoever with the guitar that I french polished with this same batch of shellac that I mixed in Feb, although I haven't seen it since June. That guitar was french polished in March and I'm curious to know how long it took for the problems on David's guitars to show up. David, did your shellac disolve well before you used it and is it possible that it was an application issue? I would also like to hear from Vijay about why he thinks mine would have gone bad so quickly. As for the results of the experiment; all 3 mixtures never completely disolved.
Wendy


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:34 am 
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I will be stunned if Vijay doesn't go out of his way to make you happy. Please let us know what his diagnosis is on this.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:59 pm 
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I emailed Vijay and he requested that I send him a sample of the shellac flakes so that he could test them himself. He had the same result that I had and he is replacing what I have left of it. He was very helpful and he said that it would be ok for me to post the email that he sent me so here it is:

Hi Wendy,You are correct. The shellac has gone into polymerization. Not usable anymore. Please let me know what you have left and I'll send you replacement. I would greatly appreciate if you could send me your stock by regular mail so that I may show it to my students. It is rare to come across polymerized shellac. Thanks for bringing it to my attention and I am very sorry for all the inconvenience caused. Dewaxed Platina has the shortest shelf life compared to all other dewaxed varieties. The rule of thumb (before polymerization starts) used in the industry is about 2 years from the date of manufacture. However since Platina is the most processed of all varieties, it may not last that long sometimes. Very difficult to predict. Storage condition of seedlac that was used to make this batch may not have been the best in terms of heat and humidity. Other factors to name one could be that de-colorization (bleaching) process could have been longer if the seedlac had more color than normal. The bleaching process leads to changes in the physio chemical and molecular structure resulting in higher reactivity and thus reduced stability Therefore there are many factors that could effect accelerated polymerization. However please be rest assured that your storage conditions are not to blame. As long as shellac is kept in a cool and dry place away from direct sunlight, it is fine. Storing it in the fridge or in a tightly sealed bag etc... is not going to make any difference. Polymerization is a chemical process at the molecular level. It is always on going. You simply cannot stop it by changing ambient conditions. Although you can accelerate it with abnormal ambient conditions such as heat, humidity and gaseous reactions. I can answer all questions and opinions in the link with good scientific evidence. Doing so would make me write a paper that would be several pages long. However, I would be more than glad to answer any questions that you may have. Send me a list and I will throw light on each. But first read the following to get some idea about this wonderful but complicated product:Shellac even today is an unknown product in terms of its chemical construction. We do know about the many chemical groups that are found in it. However not all is still known since it is a naturally occurring product made by insects with no human intervention. Climatic conditions, different species of insect, different species of trees that insects live on, soil varieties effecting the sap of the tree and host of other variables make it very difficult to understand this product. But there is a lot of information out there mainly from researchers funded by the pharmaceutical industry and Lac Research Institute in India. Dewaxed shellac is primarily made for the pharmaceutical industry for coating pills for enteric dissolution. Shellac that has polymerized and if used for pills will not dissolve in enteric juices in the GI tract. Therefore the pharma industry is very interested in knowing how to detect shellac that has polymerized before it is used as a coating in the manufacturing chain.Please feel free to ask as many questions as you want.Regards,Vijay


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:59 pm 
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Koa
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Thanks for posting that, Wendy.

I haven't been in touch with Vijay lately, but today I received this email from him:
"Hi Eric,
> My records indicate that you had bought some Platina flakes from me on
> April 3 2011 and August 4 2011. Could you please let me know if you have
> had the opportunity to use it all up. The reason I ask is because
> another customer also bought Platina in around the same time and has
> detected that it has polymerized thus not dissolving completely. If you
> have any left overs, please let me know the quantity so that I may ship
> you fresh stock.
> Sorry for any inconvenience caused.
> Regards,
> Vijay"

I think that's pretty remarkable customer service.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:58 pm 
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Wow Eric, I agree, that is pretty amazing customer service! I'm sure I will be ordering from Vijay again and , as he pointed out in another email, he is the only supplier that includes a label with a "test for dissolution" date. I may, however, rethink using platina since it is the least stable. I wonder if blond or super blond is less risky?
Wendy


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:21 pm 
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Koa
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I've been gone awhile so sorry if I'm late to the party.
In no way do I "blame" Vijay, he is not responsible for the supply train, sorry for naming him, I thought he was named way before I chimed in.
I buy in small quantities and re-order as needed, so as to have the fresh product.
I find, in my experience, that light shellac does not work for me, on guitars, in the near or long term.
Finish is a pain, and I'm only trying to avoid pain.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:50 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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[clap] Now that is how you take care of your cusomers!

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:06 pm 
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Bryan Bear wrote:
[clap] Now that is how you take care of your cusomers!


Amen


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