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Nonsense!

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Dave
Milton, ON

You might experiment with water based aniline stain mixed in with the water based finish.
Warms it up a bit, and you don't have to mix shellac with water based.
I have had many problems with mixing different finishes over one another,
so I stay away from that.
I used an amber aniline color,
and it looked pretty good.
Just stop with the aniline when you get the look you want,
and go with clear after that.
Left guitar is KTM 9 straight, middle is KTM 9 with amber aniline added,
one on the right is dark amber f.p. shellac, straight.

Agreed. I've used shellac under several WB finishes and it works just fine.

The keys to success are first, always mix your own. Second, use dewaxed shellac.

Shellac is so easy and cheap to mix yourself I simply can't fathom why someone would even try a pre mixed product.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

I haven't tried any water based finishes yet, but would think shellac and water might not mix too well. I just used the Zinzer amber shellac from home depot for the heck of it. Besides it was all I had money for and could find at the time. Seems great after thinning it out. Never used amber before though and had to redo the top a couple of times due to a few uneven spots I had tried to "fix" a bit too late. Looks nice on the claro walnut I used.

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"Preoccupation with an effect gives it power and enhances the error"
from "Your Owner's Manual" by Burt Hotchkiss.

You think incorrectly and correctly at the same time. Once dry, shellac is one of the best vapor barriers that we know of. I'll look around and see if I can find the paper that shows that. When already dissolved in alcohol, adding in water can cause all sorts of problems which is why you should always mix your own from flakes.



Always mix your own from flakes.

Always mix your own from flakes.

Did I mention, Always mix your own.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Zinsser Amber Shellac is not de-waxed. I repeat, NOT DE-WAXED. The only Zinsser shellacs that are de-waxed are SEAL COAT, and The Spray Shellac. And, it does have a shelf life, as does mixed shellac of any type.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I am curious about Target Coatings... when I first heard of them I am assuming that it's a house brand of Target (the supermarket).

I am assuming this isn't clear coats you can go pick up at Target?

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

No affiliation with the supermarket chain. Target Coatings just makes finish products.

Hmmm....
That explains the weird white gum that appeared when I tried to clean the shellac cup with hot water. I use isopropyl as a flake melter....

I have a moment so I thought I'd elaborate a bit on my experience. I've used Target USL (precursor to EM6000) for the last 4 instruments I've made. I haven't used EM6000 yet because I haven't finished an instrument in the last two years because I had a lot of USL sitting around from purchasing a gallon of it a while ago. I have a gallon of EM6000 now (unfortunately it's been sitting un-opened for a year) but will be spraying that in about a month or so.

Waterborne finishes don't look as nice as nitro or polyester but they're pretty darn good and they're great if you're working in a basement shop with inadequate ventilation to use toxic solvent based finishes. It should be noted that WB finishes do use a solvent, it's just that the amount is much less. Think of WB as a "mayonnaise" of finish, solvent and water.

If sprayed correctly, the dreaded blue haze can be minimized and it gives you a darn nice finish.

As to shellac, I've always used shellac as my sealer before spraying WB. I use dewaxed super blond and sometimes dewaxed orange, always mixed fresh (within 6 months) from flakes. The thing with super blond is that it does have a shelf life that's much shorter than the less processed ones so I buy the smallest package I can so I use it up before it gets bad. Apparently, orange, garnet etc. last much longer in flake form than super blond. I steer clear of the pre-mixed variety and would never entertain the thought of Target's water borne shellac. They have to do too many weird things to it to get it to work and you can even find anecdotes on the Target forum where using the WB shellac does yield a weak finish.

I use super blond because I've found that the darker shades can end up blotchy due to un-even absorption by the wood. 1 oz of flakes in one cup of alcohol gives a 1lb cut. If the flakes are pretty fresh, it takes just a few hours for them to fully dissolve. Because I'm only mixing 1 cup at a time, I'm never throwing much away.

Using shellac as the undercoat also has the advantage of making up for some of the problem with WB finishes sucking the depth out of the grain. Shellac adds some of the depth back.

So, my procedure is to seal with shellac, pore fill anything that needs pore filling (usually only the rosette) with epoxy, then another couple coats of shellac. I usually just wipe on the shellac with a paper towel. Perhaps a little sanding if I get any grain raising.

Next comes about 18 coats of WB finish. WB goes on a lot thinner than nitro so 18 to 20 coats gives a finish from between about 6 to 9 mills. I usually spray about 4 coats a day. I now let it hang for about a month before level sanding and buffing.

As to the blue haze, apparently it can be minimized by spraying thin coats in a dry environment. I've also found that even if you do get the haze, it will go away over a period of years but it will go away.

_________________
http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

In the FWIW department...

I have used dewaxed shellac (that I mixed) as a base for KTM-9 and had some bad failure issues. So I would certainly disagree with the notion that shellac and waterbornes is a problem-free combination. You have to remember that waterbornes don't penetrate - they sit on top. Shellac is notoriously slippery as a material goes, and waterbornes require a good mechanical bond, which isn't helped if you spray directly over shellac that has not been sanded to break the surface tension and give a surface that the waterborne can grab hold of.

I was perhaps the first person that I'm aware of that used KTM9 for an instrument, and I'm somewhat responsible for it's proliferation in instrument use a few years back having recommended it to Mike Doolin to try. My experiences were basically good, but I found that it became really difficult to buff out the really fine swirl marks from sanding and buffing. The initial testing that Mike did showed that it was pretty tough against body chemistry issues, so I'm a bit surprised to hear that there have been some. Most folks just complained about the softness and yet the toughness which made getting those fine buff marks out.

I've never tried the EM Target products, but I have tried KTM-SV, albeit not on a guitar, on other projects. I really like it, and hope it can be the go-to finish I use when not farming out an instrument for nitro. It really has a warm look to it like a varnish, which is pretty cool. Will it look as good as nitro? Nope. But it's pretty darn nice. The jury is out on the body chemistry thing for right now though.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Hmm...

Perhaps the issue isn't the shellac but rather the KTM-9. I've never used it but I have read that KTM-9 does have burn in issues. EM6000 supposedly burns into previous coats.

I know that the Target products do have a solvent in there and apparently that's why they're able to burn in. Perhaps that's why they stick to shellac?

_________________
http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

You may be onto something there Andy. It could very well be.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Personally, on my own gig guitars I have had issues with KTM-9, showing up within the first few months and getting worse and worse. After a few years the neck feels like Braille. (Not sure what it's saying though)...
I also have a gig guitar in SV and it is holding up fine well over two years later. It buffs out nicer looking than the 9 as well, I think. Possibly because it's a urethane?

That may very well be. KTM-9 has some acrylic in it, whereas the SV is all polyurethane. I also like the look of the SV better, and it seems pretty easy to spray to me as well.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

The acrylic is what scares me about EM-6000 as well. As for spraying SV, I was doing ok with a porter cable gun, but my compressor was too small and I kept running out of air before running out of panel. Now I'm using a 150$ Rockler sprayer and it's a challenge. I can't seem to get a wet coat, and am left with a pebbly look that makes orange peel look pretty. Sands out though....

Thin the finish some, either with water, or whatever is used for retarder in waterbornes.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

How far away are you holding the spray gun. I think more than 6 inches away will cause curing of the finish before it reaches the guitar. This will cause that pebbly look. Think about adding 1 ounce of distilled water to each quart of KTM-SV.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

Everyone has given opinions on shellac under KTM-9 and EM6000. I'd like to know about using shellac under KTM-SV. I have sealed with dewaxed super blond, freshly mixed shellac and pore filled with shellac and sawdust. Then I wiped on a couple more coats of shellac and sanded with 320. I am not set up to spray, so I was thinking of brushing KTM-SV. Will this work over what I have already done? Thanks, Wendy

Whoops, I see now that meddlingfool has used it over shellac. Any experiences brushing the SV?

KTM-SV is fine with shellac. Brushing it will work also.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

Like with any waterborne - if you're using shellac as a base, put down a few thin coats, and lightly sand to break the surface tension prior to spraying the waterborne.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Don,

What grit do you use to break the surface tension after shellac?

John

Not too coarse...I'd stick with around 220 or so. You want to knock the shine off of it.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I still have a lot of experimenting to do as far as thinning it. I have one on the go where I thinned the SV 2oz to 600m. When buffing, the swirly look you can get wet sanding didn't go away, and showed through as an almost pearlescent effect on the guitar. Had to strip and redo. So thinning it spooked me, as I've never had it happen before. I'm holding the gun about 3" from the guitar. The spray pattern is only about 1.5" wide. I have the feeling I'd be doing myself a favor by dropping the dime on a Fuji. But I'm experimenting with brushing uvpoly as well, so I don't want to commit...