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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:51 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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No.. Here's what needs to happen... This matter shouldn't be settled by some technicality or by India just properly re-classifying their stuff.....

The most basic, key question needs to be answered....

If the Justice Department carefully enforces the Lacey Act as it is written TODAY.... Will it infringe upon the basic constitutional and civil rights of every American......

The answer right now appears to be "Yes!"... The act is sufficiently broadly written that potentially ANY consumer product that contains plant or animal material could be attached.... and the owner has essentially no recourse under law...

I totally agree that we need to take action against poaching and harvesting endangered species.... We need to help be a part of stopping this sort of trade.... but the Lacey act as currently written and amended is not the right tool.... It makes innocent people into criminals for stupid reasons that no one cares about - like FSC Sourced Guitar fingerboard blanks being imported under a customs declaration that was maybe partially correct - and likely resulted in MORE duties collected by our own government....

Thanks


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:02 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Sorry for that.... ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:25 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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truckjohn wrote:
No.. Here's what needs to happen... This matter shouldn't be settled by some technicality or by India just properly re-classifying their stuff.....

The most basic, key question needs to be answered....

If the Justice Department carefully enforces the Lacey Act as it is written TODAY.... Will it infringe upon the basic constitutional and civil rights of every American......

The answer right now appears to be "Yes!"... The act is sufficiently broadly written that potentially ANY consumer product that contains plant or animal material could be attached.... and the owner has essentially no recourse under law...

I totally agree that we need to take action against poaching and harvesting endangered species.... We need to help be a part of stopping this sort of trade.... but the Lacey act as currently written and amended is not the right tool.... It makes innocent people into criminals for stupid reasons that no one cares about - like FSC Sourced Guitar fingerboard blanks being imported under a customs declaration that was maybe partially correct - and likely resulted in MORE duties collected by our own government....

Thanks


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:16 pm 
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Me too! Way to go John!

It was short sighted to use already existing law written for other materials . New statutes should have been written. Lazy Congress! gaah

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:17 pm 
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Koa
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Hmmm....

Me look around and up on that mtn top me see some spruce and some cedar and some birch and some maple and the odd oak, and thats only in my part of the country. Whats growing in your parts of the country?

think local woods...

and when they become illegal well then pack it in or think toxic as in plastics.

In me nsho...me thinks dis here lacy thing is to help move the consciousness of amerika away form the rape pillage and plunder of the planets resources, although some what of a feeble effort considering the vast harvesting of the planet going on in the name of progress and profit. Is no matter really, cuz when the harvest is over we gonna do exactly what our ancestors did eons and eons ago...we leave the planet. Now the only problem with that is me know that me and more than likely you don't got no ticket for that ride. So best me can say is suck it up and use local woods.

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Last edited by the Padma on Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:30 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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"think local woods..."
Yup, I agree.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:37 pm 
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Koa
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No local spruce for me, but I do have oak, persimmon, cherry, sycamore, and the odd walnuts and maples. Surprising how much we find when we actually take the time to look. Not keeping me from using the small amount of exotics I already use though. I like my mac ebony, bloodwood, and koa. Clients do too, but I wouldn't know that lol.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:52 pm 
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Koa
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Did a bit of research and also found that we have alder, birch, hickory, pecan, and various types of ash. Go to south florida and who knows what you'll find. Cuban Mahogany, rosewoods, no telling. Just sayin.....


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:33 pm 
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Koa
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Couple of quick points, and then I'm done.

As Bob rightly pointed out, Lacey is a broadsword and doesn't discriminate between illegal harvest and illegal transportation. The statute states that the material must be harvested and transported in accordance with all laws both foreign and domestic. That pretty much covers it.

Bob, I have no idea what the Feds will do with your sanded 10mm fingerboards -- they are of their own mind.

Lastly, Lacey is a 100 year old law. If its constitutionality were an issue, it would have been overturned by now.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:07 am 
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Koa
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I wonder if guitar factories in China are being raided by their government and having their resources seized?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:51 am 
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Not much on Wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacey_Act_of_1900

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:44 pm 
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Filippo Morelli wrote:
dberkowitz wrote:
Lastly, Lacey is a 100 year old law. If its constitutionality were an issue, it would have been overturned by now.

That makes no sense, David. Can you explain? The law has been amended recently. Not to mention that any number of unconstitutional laws exist which are not enforced and thusly not contested in courts.

Laws go through judicial voracity only when lawsuits ate brought by an aggrieved party.

Filippo


I totally agree with Filippo on this. It has never been challenged - 1) because it really hasn't been enforced much over the 100 years it's been in existence and 2) because they have never upset the right person yet. When they confiscate the material of the right people, someone will fight it all the way to the Supreme Court. It just takes lots of money. After all, Slavery was legal for nearly 100 years. (Not a political statement!)
An unenforced law is rarely challenged in court. The reason for the recent enforcement is the American Lumber/Wood Industry and their Lobbying in Washington to Save the Lumber Industry and Hopefully the Furniture industry, which account for over 90% of the material in question covered by the Lacey Amendment to include Plant products. The problem is that they chose to enforce it on practically the smallest industry using the materials - the Guitar industry - which only accounts for something like 2% of the wood in question. Then when it is enforced, it's enforced because of the poor wording of someone else's categories for export. That makes sense! pfft gaah

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:38 pm 
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Koa
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Waddy, Fillipo, you have no idea what you're talking about. There have been several raids even recently regarding Lacey and the importation of antique pianos -- and there were heavy fines. It's been around a long time. Undoubtedly challenged, and it still stands. Chuck Erickson was investigated over Lacey about two years ago.

-- db


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 4:33 pm 
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Lacey was amended in 2008, but no enforcement took place, according to the government, until Spring of 2010 on the new amendment, to allow people to prepare. Problem was, no one was properly informed of the requirements, and they caught a lot of folks by surprise when they began enforcement. One of the biggest drawbacks of the Act is that it allows the US F&W Service to interpret the laws of other countries as they see fit, not as intended or as the other countries interpret them. I'd say that's a major flaw. One of the other shortcomings is that there is no "de minimus" rule, which leaves guitarmakers responsible to list every item, even those where only .0000004 cu Meter used in the instrument at a value of $.0002 - ridiculous!

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:32 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Maybe it's not such a bad idea to start a guitar business in Taiwan after all... laws aren't as complicated there.

I am starting to wonder if I should require all American customers to pick up the guitar himself because I don't want to get in trouble regarding Lacey act.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:43 am 
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Koa
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You won't sell many guitars that way.....


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:54 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Ian Cunningham wrote:
You won't sell many guitars that way.....


That is if you're assuming that only Americans would buy guitars...

Laws in other countries aren't as difficult to comply with compared to American laws.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:37 pm 
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Damn--I hate lawyers! wow7-eyes

I have been one for 37 years. I have successfully litigated constitutional issues. Preserving the issue properly is the biggest stumbling block to obtaining a ruling on a constitutional claims. And, it is an appellate premise to avoid a constitutional rendering of an issue if it can be resolved on any other ground.

I was thinking the Mr. Berkowitz falls into the same category as Mr Hoffman. Lawyers who chose the more honorable way of making a living than practicing law-maybe not. There are quite a few people educated as lawyers who are professional luthiers.

So, I hate us when I buy a new lawn mower, many power tools and all manner of things that produced the resulting low esteem in which we are held. gaah

I was primarily a major level criminal trial lawyer- a few(3-4) hundred felony jury trials with around 10 % in the homicide realm. I prosecuted and defended. I look back and believe that in many ways, I have irritated fewer folks than the business litigators and those lawyers who will take a case to sue a grocery store because in Iowa, in dead of winter, a person did not know how to prudently walk on winter affected pedestrian surfaces-or spilled the infamous 300-billion- sold- properly hot cup of coffee in the lap in the drive-through. I suppose that with the huge surge in iced coffee drinks, now also sold by "300billion", some fellow will sue them for traumatic chilling of his nether regions in the drive-through----an event that could arguably be said to benefit humankind by reducing that bloodline for the intellectual well being of the planet.

From what I have seen, the instrument world has taken notice of protection of cherished "rarewoods" and other high-risk materials with far more respect than many industries give to their overall world-friendly obligations. And, I accept the notion that enforcement picks on those with the least clout-at least at the administrative level.

In some respects I am glad I was forced to retire because of health matters. I miss the courtroom, but nothing else about the profession. I am now going out to the garage to fire up my tablesaw for a cut that requires bypassing the guard; just for the hell of it. [headinwall]

End of rant-hope some of you grinned!


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:51 pm 
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Cocobolo
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I smiled. And will admit wishing to have gone to law school, if only to feel more comfortable in the web rules and regulations that are about today, Laws that are unable to be clearly understood can be frustrating and depressing, and I think that is why this topic is so hotly debated. justice I do run my saws without the guards, but have never removed one of those pillow tags.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:24 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Guys, I've got a problem. Apparently, my guitars all learned that their fingerboards were illiegal and now all I can play is "Jailhouse Rock." I don't even really like that song. I mean, it's ok . . .

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:02 pm 
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Hi Mike Hope all is well.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:34 am 
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I think I might try building some different colored BONDO guitars in 2012.....with reinforced necks of course....

Kent

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:21 pm 
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Koa
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John Ressler's OSB guitars are looking better and better...

http://www.resslerguitars.com/custom-guitars-gallery.htm

My next build is going to a guy in France. Am I puzzled? Darn right I am.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:14 pm 
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I just read through this whole post. Wow! I just think somebody needs to look at the constitutionality of the government restricting free trade of their citizens in any manor. I'm fairly sure that the founding fathers would pick up a musket against the system we now have in place....

If I'm understanding this correctly, the legal action against Gibson came about because India misclassified the blanks. If this is the issue, then does this not leave every citizen of the US open as a target of prosecution, due to the acts of a foreign government? How did we get here?

That being said, It seems the issue they have a problem with is the fact that a FB blank is (in their eyes) a sawn piece of wood that could be used for anything, and not identifiable as a guitar part specifically. So would the solution not be to put one fret dot clear on the end of the face, in a cut-off zone, or something similar? Wouldn't this then be unmistakably a guitar part?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:18 pm 
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Koa
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BRC wrote:
I just read through this whole post. Wow! I just think somebody needs to look at the constitutionality of the government restricting free trade of their citizens in any manor.


Um.. you might not have noticed, but our beloved representatives don't really give a rip about the constitution any more...

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