Official Luthiers Forum!

<Post removed in the interest of seriousness.>

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Gee, I guess we can rename this forum "The Official Tea Party Lutherie Forum".

For a bunch of people dependent on natural resources for their livelihood, their hobby, and their passion, you don't seem to have given much thought to using them responsibly. Yes, Lacey is deeply flawed and will lead to a series of court cases and injustices. Yes, government employees will misuse their power -- but I've never met anyone anywhere who's above the misuse of power, whether government or private enterprise.

No, Lacey isn't part of some wholesale conspiracy to drive jobs overseas or screw the businessmen. It's an early effort (and not a good one) at dealing with overharvesting of all sorts of resources, using the legal power of the Federal government to oversee interstate shipments of endangered species.

Gibson has a long history of questionable and flat-out illegal dealings, including the importation of restricted species. That they were raided is no surprise. That finding illegal materials takes a while is also no surprise. That you all would rush to the side of a business engaged in such activities is deeply disappointing.

American lutherie was once populated by people who had a larger commitment to the materials, the craft, and the art. It's a shame that it has become the province of such shallow and irresponsible attitudes as expressed here.

+1, Rick.

+1

I'm all for environmental protection but too often it is done in a careless manner which causes more harm than good. The Lacey Act is a prime example of yet another poorly executed environmental law.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Nope Rick - you got it totally wrong....

We aren't worried specifically about Gibson - those guys have gigantically DEEP pockets and can afford to pay top notch lawyers to sort out their problems.... They can afford to take the Government to court in an extended battle to get their stuff back.... They will do it.. and they will get all their stuff returned with an apology from the Government for their troubles..... I shed no tears for those guys....

The real underlying question that is most important to you and I, though... What about You or Me? What's to stop FWS from raiding YOUR shop... Confiscating all your wood, all your records, all your computers, and all your Money.... and leaving you with NOTHING to use to fight your own court case with..... AND you now have no business left to pay those bills with either.....

When they seize items -they don't have to take you to court... They don't have to levee any charges against you..... They just come with a warrant in hand and take your stuff.... There is no assurance you will ever get it back... It's all "Evidence" in an investigation... You gotta sue the government to have them return your seized goods, records, computers, and money..... and you gotta do it in a way that won't "Obstruct" their investigation of a case against you.... That costs lots of money too.... and it will take YEARS to sort out in court.....

Where are YOU going to get that sort of money and time if someone with a grudge against you or some nutty extremist environmental group checks out your website and decides to file a series of complaints with FWS about you using undocumented D. Nigra or Elephant tusk or whatever happens to become Illegal in 10-years that wasn't even threatened when you bought the stuff 20-years ago? Do you have a way to prove where each and every sliver of wood, bone, and shell you own came from - back to the tree, animal, or mollusc, including chain of custody...? It's impossible - especially when you start getting into the chain of custody..... How many hands have handled that bone nut blank between the Cow or Camel and you?

Thanks

well, i´m not versed in politics US-style and this thread seems like moving on its undercurrents, but i´ll ask this (just to make it clear to me) naive question: nobody questions that using illegally (if proved) harvested wood is wrong, right? not trying to step on anybody´s toes.

cheers,
miguel.

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member of the guild of professional dilettantes

Of course, for builders who use American grown woods for their instruments... the Lacey argument is merely a moot point. I love exotic stuff, but prefer domestic woods for the most part. What's wrong with American mahogany, ash, catalpa, maple, persimmon, pecan, alder, poplar, etc.?

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

As far as I know, and unlike what Rick seems to think, we all want to be responsible and legal here. The problem is giant corporations lobby the government to have impossible regulations put in place that only huge corporations with deep pockets can comply with, nudging out the little guy and giving them even MORE market share and leverage. I wouldn't be surprised if Gibson didn't even care that they are being raided if it puts the fear of Big Brother in us, since they know they'll get their stuff back and we're effed if it happens to us.
The problem is when the side effects of such legislation is that little girls can't open lemonade stands, or home gardens are made illegal.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

This is crux of the problem , Not even the Goverment can really figure out what is "responsible and legal" in enforcing laws that are so poorly thought out . I cannot prove that anything in my home isnt illegal based on the criteria they have in place . If the offices of these individuals were raided themselves , would their desks , etc: pass inspection ? Could they prove it ? If the authorities at hand have problem doing so , how is the average man supposed to .

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The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
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Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
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What happened to to being innocent before being proven guilty.?I don`t see how the feds can confinscate anything before proving Gibson has restricted woods.How do things like the Lacey act get enacted in the first place?What in the hell has happened to this once great country that I grew up in.I say go for it Tea Party.
James

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

The road to Hades is paved with laws like the Lacey act that do more harm than good. I’m all for conserving our precious natural resources and staying within the law, but no law at all is often better than a bad one, and we have too many bad ones on the books and a government that loves to churn them out at an ever increasing rate. This country in desperate need of change…real change.

a big -1 for rick, even if you are a responsibe environmentally aware person. No one wants their government looking over their shoulder. The tea partiers have come out of the woodwork , because they are sick and tired of big brother government telling us what to do.

Domestic grown wood is not exempt from the Lacey Act. All the species you mention are subject right along side imports. In fact it is possible to have paperwork that shows the origin of exotic species but does that exist for maple or spruce? Can you prove a piece of maple was not taken from protected land?

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Lance Peck

I can build a guitar entirely of pine, Texas grown Pine, and it is subject to the same laws and regulations as Brazilian Rosewood, if I want to export it.

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I can see Rick's point. He has clearly states that the Lacey act is not a good law, but it is a step in the right direction, it just a step too far as always. We seem to see the same thing with new legislation from governments all over the globe. Ideally the pendulum should just hang in the middle where no one is completely happy, but what they have is fair to all parties. But politics don't work that way, by nature politicians do nothing until an issue is BIG and identified as extremely bad. Then they knee jerk their way across to the nearest axe and cut the legislative ropes that will send the pendulum swinging right past centre to the other extreme where it is tied in place by a new set of poorly thought out laws....seems no one can make the 'right' decisions because to do that would cause everyone to grumble and the media would crucify the culprit.

Hard to know what can be done unless people who vote can manage to allow themselves to think rationally and accept a bit of pain for what is best for all, but that won't happen cause deep down most of us are just a little too selfish.....give me mine or get stuffed mate..history indicates that the only thing that can break that mantra and make people sacrifice a little for the greater good is a disaster or threat so overwhelming that we simply have no other choice.

Cheers

Kim

I live in a very beautiful, resource rich area of America. Around my house, there are enormous trees. Deer wander by the window of my shop. I don't know enough about birds to count the species that drink at the faucet dripping on my porch. Coyotes, foxes, wild turkeys, raccoons, cougars, all thrive in the woods here. The wealth I live in is the result of regulation. Sometimes I don't agree with the regulations. Pretty often, I don't agree with the people who enforce those regulations, but I'm glad we have regulations, and people who enforce them. 150 years ago, this area was largely clear cut. Our state animal, the symbol on our flag, the grizzly bear, was exterminated. Back then, there weren't many regulations, or people to enforce them.

My Chinese friends are amazed by the wildlife here. Where they come from, you only see songbirds on a plate at fancy restaurants. When I visited Paracho, the friend I stayed with showed me his family's plot of mountain land. He was trying to reforest it, but every tree he planted was cut by poachers as soon as it was big enough to be useful as firewood.

If we don't enforce some sort of international standards for conservation, then every country that is willing to strip its environment of resources will be able to undersell American timber producers.

What little I know about the Lacey act, leads me to think that it's poorly written. Okay, let's rewrite it. And then enforce it.

I think there's been a lot of paranoia in this thread. The FWS raiding small luthier's shops? Has that ever happened? Illegal Brazilian rosewood is commonly bought and sold. On other forums, guitarists discuss the merits, and the going price of real tortoise shell. Customers bring me guitars with elephant ivory saddles they recently purchased on ebay. If anything, I think enforcement has been a little lax.

Do I want a "nanny state". No. Do I want the FWS scrutinizing my shop? I don't think I have anything to hide, but I'd rather be left alone. Do I want my neighborhood to look like much of China, or like Paracho? No thanks, I'll take regulation.

Thank you Eric, great post!

The Tea Party will only result in anarchy anyways, which ultimately leads to a dictatorship.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

And then tougher immigration laws are passed by virtually every country due to all of these government payrolls and people not wanting foreigners to have them. I would much rather have free travel to all lands than government handouts.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

+2 Rick and +1 Tai Fu.
Toddy, I'm in for 10 pounds. You want to shrink Govt? Bring ALL the troops home (who are we protecting Germany from...Somalia?), shrink the pentagon down till you can drown it in a bathtub, take govt welfare away from GE and all the other bomb makers, burn Wall Street to the ground, apply duties to imports, bring jobs home (BUY AMERICAN), get rid of the Fed, put the Biderberger's in prison, send all the 3 cornered hat wearing tea baggers to Texas and have them succeed from the union (Please take Michelle Bachmann too).
Fascism comes wrapped in the flag and bearing the cross...

Have a nice day. Over and out.

The "Off Topic" area is not for political or religious stuff, so this must be the place?

Kevin Looker

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I'm not a luthier.
I'm just a guy who builds guitars in his basement.
It's better than playing golf.

And Gibsons response:

The Justice department bullies Gibson without filing charges

The Federal Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. has suggested that the use of wood from India that is not finished by Indian workers is illegal, not because of U.S. law, but because it is the Justice Department’s interpretation of a law in India. (If the same wood from the same tree was finished by Indian workers, the material would be legal.) This action was taken without the support and consent of the government in India.

On August 24, 2011, around 8:45 a.m. CDT, agents for the federal government executed four search warrants on Gibson’s facilities in Nashville and Memphis and seized several pallets of wood, electronic files and guitars. Gibson had to cease its manufacturing operations and send workers home for the day, while armed agents executed the search warrants. Gibson has fully cooperated with the execution of the search warrants.

More at: http://www.gibson.com/absolutenm/templa ... 0&zoneid=6

You obviously don't know what "the tea party is" and can be forgiven for such an uninformed statement.
This is the USA, and last time I checked, we are allowed to gather for political purposes, and attempt to change the existing form of government, peaceably.
In fact, the Country is founded on that principle.

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David's right! The "Tea Party" is about returning to our roots. Smaller, less intrusive government, and free market principles.

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Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars