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 Post subject: Re: The 50 hour guitar
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:36 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Location: Magnolia, Texas
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Talk to Kent Everett. He used to build 60 guitars a year.

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 Post subject: Re: The 50 hour guitar
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:54 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Tony_in_NYC wrote:
John Mayes wrote:
i built this guitar (the woodworking that is) in a 2 days span. Almost no sleep, and working like crazy. Not something I recommend for both you and the guitar.




Now that we know how, the next question is, WHY?? Beautiful guitar by the way. You can't tell it was built in 48 hours.



Healdsburg 2005 time crunch.

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 Post subject: Re: The 50 hour guitar
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:19 pm 
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First name: Brian
Last Name: Itzkin
State: NY/Granada
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I seem to remember that Kevin Gallagher as well as Mr. Mayes built guitars in 1 day using CA, and then had then strung up by day 2.


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 Post subject: Re: The 50 hour guitar
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:59 pm 
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Cocobolo
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First name: Hugh
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The faster I build, the more material I have to buy, the more the hobby costs. I go slow, save money, and maybe have better guitars than I would otherwise.


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 Post subject: Re: The 50 hour guitar
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:11 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:21 am
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Location: Central PA
First name: john
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with jigs and proper tooling you can be pretty efficient . I have done a guitar in the white in 12 hrs . That is serious hussle and something I cannot say that I like doing.

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 Post subject: Re: The 50 hour guitar
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:03 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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oval soundhole wrote:
I seem to remember that Kevin Gallagher as well as Mr. Mayes built guitars in 1 day using CA, and then had then strung up by day 2.


I don't know about Kevin, but I've only ever built one guitar with extreme speed. It took me about 40 hours of work, over a 2 day period. I only used CA where it was commonly used. The finish took a month after that. I've never built a guitar with extensive CA use, nor would I care to for health and construction concerns.

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 Post subject: Re: The 50 hour guitar
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:16 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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on a normal time frame in a class we can construct a guitar in the white in 48 hrs. That is not pushing things and using typical jigs and fixtures.

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 Post subject: Re: The 50 hour guitar
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:54 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:20 am
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Location: North East England
First name: nigel
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48 hours! Amazing. It is quite possible to build in the white in a week, if we already have skills, and after 35 guitars, you should have the skills. Another option is to ship out the spraying which is what I and several other UK makers do.

The question about why is an interesting one. If you feel you need another 50 guitars to understand more and to experiment then that could be time well spent. An approach could be to emulate Australian Classical maker Simon Marty who used the same body over and over replacing the top over and over to aid his experimentation. If you do this as a hobby and want to make 50 similar guitars, it would be worth examining why. If you make every guitar as if it will be the last, one day you'll be right!

I made this guitar years ago, whilst still at the Sobell workshop, Stefan took a week off and I spent the time building this little feller for myself. The workshop had remarkably few jigs and machines at the time. So it is quite possible, especially if you outsource finishing.

My feeling is as a hobby your time would be more enjoyable making shavings than sawdust.

So, after all the comments, what are your thoughts? What elements of decoration are you now considering dropping? - and if you really want to save time, without spending your time making jigs, this is the area to examine.

ImageImage

http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/nkforst ... _book.html

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 Post subject: Re: The 50 hour guitar
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:23 pm 
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For me, it's all about balance and everyone strikes that balance differently. Though, 150 hours does seem like a lot of time for a standard flat top guitar. I think focus is important in obtaining efficiency and it is that focus that makes it enjoyable to me and imparts a bit of my
"soul" in the guitar. While I don't want clients that will pay me to cut corners, no one is paying me to be inefficient.

There has been a lot of comments on batching. While certain steps lend themselves to batching such as making blocks, linings, roughing out blanks, etc., other do not. Also, I won't batch so much as to be not enjoyable. Furthermore, a danger in batching too much is that it becomes a mindless routine, which I feel is not only soulless, but potentially dangerous around power tools.

Personally, I've found the greatest gain in efficiency has come from having several guitars in progress at different stages, i.e one in the spray booth, gluing linings on another, moving necks forward, joining plates. When you think about it, most individual operations in building don't take a lot of time. With 8 hours in the shop, lots of focus, and several guitars in the works at different stages, a whole lot of progress is made and it never gets tedious.

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 Post subject: Re: The 50 hour guitar
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:57 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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douglas ingram wrote:
To my mind its not so much about how fast you can build, but rather, how efficient.

The more you work the faster you get. As in you know what you are after and you just go about getting there without fussing about and screwing around.

If you just like building, then it shouldn't matter how fast you build as you are still building whether its fast or slow. Now, if you prefer getting them completed over just building, that's another story.

Also, completing more guitars just to rack up the numbers is not increasing your accomplishment as a luthier, its just increasing the completed numbers. There needs to be a goal, somewhere, in the completion of more guitars. Only each individual luthier can answer that question for themselves, but we all need to ask it of ourselves.

Standardizing your building, batch processing materials, and simplifying your decorative elements, are the simplest and most effective ways to become faster. But this path leads you to be building basically just one kind of guitar over and over. You may very well get very good at that one guitar, but you had better really, really like that one kind of guitar.

p.s. Rob, looks like we were writing at the same time, both thinking about efficiency.


Douglas,
What you said about "go about getting there without fussing about and screwing around" really struck a chord with me.

It took me a while to figure out what I want to do and now I just want to do it.

I guess it really is about being efficient.


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 Post subject: Re: The 50 hour guitar
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:56 am 
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I built that one in 5 days, and it didn't take me the whole of 5 days as I was finishing a couple of other guitars at the same time, so sanding and shooting varnish probably took a couple of hours/day. I assume I have 40 hours of woodwork in the guitar. Not that I tried to go as fast as I could, but it just happened that way. It's a simple design too, no mitres expect for the framed end wedge.
It's all about flow.
Personally I think it's a mistake to try and build as fast or as many as one can. I do not think it is good for the mind, or the body for that matter. However, if the calling is there… One last thing, I find that the more I take my time, the faster I build.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
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EDIT: I could show the end wedge…
Image

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Last edited by Laurent Brondel on Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The 50 hour guitar
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:12 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Ooooh...Ahhhh!

What is that binding, Laurent?

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 Post subject: Re: The 50 hour guitar
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:29 am 
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Quote:
Ooooh...Ahhhh!

What is that binding, Laurent?



No kidding! It's gorgeous.

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 Post subject: Re: The 50 hour guitar
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:51 pm 
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I was just going to ask him if he bound that with MOTS. It looks cool !

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 Post subject: Re: The 50 hour guitar
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:00 am 
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Don, Stuart, it is not MOTS. At least I do not think so. It's definitely celluloid though.

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 Post subject: Re: The 50 hour guitar
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:31 am 
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Ok, then it falls under the heading of MOTS. <joke>

That's some very cool looking stuff. There's a company called Delmar Products in Berlin, Connecticut that makes a lot of that stuff, even the ivoroid sheets that other companies sell. Too bad they won't sell to individuals anymore. This stuff is much cheaper by the sheet.

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 Post subject: Re: The 50 hour guitar
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:02 am 
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I just made this one, as I needed a dread for festival that starts in a week or so, in about a week. So far, I probably have about 40 hours in it, but I expect to spend another 10 on final assembly and set up, so right around 50 hours total. I'm making another guitar now, where I really hurried, in less time, but with fancier trim. Finish cure will be so so for that one...

One nice thing about building fast, is you get to see the results of you efforts sooner, and if it allows you to build more instruments, you get more results to judge your efforts from. I think I learn a lot by this. I also like to think that building fast can lend a certain 'freshness' (for lack of a better term) to your style, at least if you use mostly hand tools, and few jigs etc. It can be quite beautiful, like the preliminary sketch is often better than the final painting.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: The 50 hour guitar
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:02 am 
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Location: Sugar Land, TX
First name: Ed
Last Name: Haney
City: Sugar Land (Houston)
State: Texas
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Country: USA
Focus: Build
Brad Goodman wrote:

I don't really care that much about how commercially viable they are-I have no intentions of ever making any money at this-I just like to make them.
Regards,
Brad


Brad,
My repair and building purpose (goal) is to enjoy myself while creating something of usable value that I feel good about. Speed is not much of a consideration for me. (Speed is some consideration. I don't want to spend years on one guitar.)

From your original post and responses, it still is not clear to me exactly why increasing speed is important to you. You don't expect to make money, so why do you need so many more guitars per year? Are you giving them away to people as your ministry and want to increase your giving? Why is building building more guitars per year better than what you have been doing given that monetary income is not a consideration? If you "just like to make them", why is making 12 per year better than 2 per year or some lesser number if your amount of time in the shop doing it is the same?

Your answer(s) may already be clear in your mind. I asked these questions just in case the answers are not clear to you and some prompting would help. Again, I have not seen your answers clearly delineated herein.

I see this as a good thread for all of us to question "why am I doing this". I know I need self examination on a regular basis in many areas of life. Like Howard and you, I only have a limited amount of time left on this earth. Obviously that is true for everyone, but that fact seems to become more "real" as we age and see much more time behind us than ahead of us.

Please don't take my comments in a negative tone. None is intended.

Ed


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 Post subject: Re: The 50 hour guitar
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:39 pm 
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Yo Laurent

nice binding

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 Post subject: Re: The 50 hour guitar
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:25 pm 
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Yo The, thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: The 50 hour guitar
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:44 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Arnt Rian wrote:
I just made this one, as I needed a dread for festival that starts in a week or so, in about a week. So far, I probably have about 40 hours in it, but I expect to spend another 10 on final assembly and set up, so right around 50 hours total. I'm making another guitar now, where I really hurried, in less time, but with fancier trim. Finish cure will be so so for that one...

One nice thing about building fast, is you get to see the results of you efforts sooner, and if it allows you to build more instruments, you get more results to judge your efforts from. I think I learn a lot by this. I also like to think that building fast can lend a certain 'freshness' (for lack of a better term) to your style, at least if you use mostly hand tools, and few jigs etc. It can be quite beautiful, like the preliminary sketch is often better than the final painting.

Image


BINGO!!!!

My guitars are stale! They sit on a shelf for a year (or more) and when I get back to finishing them I can'teven remember starting them-I need FRESHNESS!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: The 50 hour guitar
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:33 am 
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Location: Lorette, Manitoba, Canada
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Brad Goodman wrote:
Arnt Rian wrote:

One nice thing about building fast, is you get to see the results of you efforts sooner...I also like to think that building fast can lend a certain 'freshness' (for lack of a better term) to your style, at least if you use mostly hand tools, and few jigs etc. It can be quite beautiful, like the preliminary sketch is often better than the final painting.


BINGO!!!!

My guitars are stale! They sit on a shelf for a year (or more) and when I get back to finishing them I can't even remember starting them-I need FRESHNESS!!!!!


Which is a whole different paradigm that just building faster to get more done. You are going to have to re-think a lot more than just building methods.

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