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The first thing that came to mind when reading this post was to wonder if you are heating the frets up too much during the recrown/polishing stage ... this can very definitely make the frets move around big time. This might not be your problem of course, but something to keep in mind ... especially when using power buffers of any kind to polish the frets to a fine finish.

Apologies for the double post folks.

Um...yer absolutely , positively correct Steve.

Padma, him don't own no straight edge...but thats worth only 1 point as by now you would think that everybody would assume that. Non the less me do gots this hand me down pine yardstick from the 50's thats straight, well pretty straigh...works good nuf for me.

Now, Flipo...ya, me has encountered this need for a second leveling on about 1/3 of me builds. Don't know why, don't really care...me just do it and thats the end of it. Simple eh.

blessings
Padma


Ps umm ya Stock...me too would like to read the Todds how to make it straight tut.

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Have you measured the actual cut of your saw with feeler gauge,
and micrometered your actual fret tang?

Here's what crosses my mind:

#1. I use mostly Stew Mac #148, and I cut a kerf that is .O22". I think I'd be even better with .021". (I'm measuring the kerf, not the blade.) Fret tangs vary a lot. Even the various Stew Mac wires that are listed as having the same tang, vary quite a bit. You might be better off with a narrower kerf.

#2 A couple of people have mentioned wicking in super glue. I don't see that step in your procedure. I tap my frets in dry--no glue involved--but I do wick in super glue when I'm done. This really helps keep the frets where you've put them.

Those are the two that seem like they might explain the changes you are seeing. I have some other thoughts on the description of your leveling procedure:

#1 I level the frets using a combination of a four inch section of mill file glued to a wood block, and 400 grit sandpaper stuck to a 1x1x9" piece of aluminum that has been machined very flat on one side. When all of the fret tops have very slight flats from the sandpaper, they are no where near flat (in plane). I've got some ideas about why this is true, but what's important is that it's true. Put a good straight edge on the frets along a string path, and look for gaps with a .001" feeler gauge. (Some of the "luthier" straight edges are straight plus or minus .003". They won't be much help.) Just for fun, try getting all the string paths to be straight lines. You can decide how much relief you want where, but you may be surprised by what you find when you go looking. Checking again when the frets are crowned, and then when they are polished, might surprise you further. At any rate, it has surprised me. As someone else mentioned, how you support the neck will affect your measurements. On classicals, and to a lesser extent on steel strings, you can predict what will happen when string tension is added. On long neck electrics, those assumptions are riskier.

#2 The fret rockers I've purchased don't have flat sides. They've come with a mixture of concave and convex. Concave makes everything seem fine. Convex is.....vexing.

I am coming late to that thread. I use a jeweller hammer to pound the frets in, I polished and rounded the head with 2000grit. It gives me a lot of control and I never have frets spring back. Maybe it is technique, a deadblow hammer is what a lot of people use, but it seems to me the lightest one is a bit heavy for the job. So maybe a bit of springback on some frets. When I chamfer the fret edges (with another wood block and 10" file at about 30º) I lightly pound each fret ends. It makes a huge difference in the final product.
Since I permanently switched to the EVO wire I haven't had to wick CA to hold the frets ends, the EVO wire seems to hold very well on its own and is the easiest, most consistent wire I have used, period. My thought would be that by introducing moisture with HHG there is a chance of altering the fretboard plane. I am not saying it is so, I am stating there a chance. Chamfering the slots probably helps and is the best guarantee to not blowing the wood out at refret time while pulling the old frets out.
Not all materials are equal in holding frets well, IMHO the best is still any kind of ebony, the worst I've done is black walnut. A lot of hardwoods are in between.
I also use a 10" file epoxied to a wood block to level the frets, I round them with the SM diamond file, and polish with 400, then 600 grit 3M wetordry Frank Ford style. I then use the grey and white synthetic steel wool and buff with Menzerna brown. I stopped using 0000 steel wool a long time ago, too messy, too many chances of scratching the finish. Forget it with magnetic pickups…

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

I use a light hammer tapping lightly to fully seat the frets. I find if I wack it too hard or use too big a hammer the fret bounces back and ends up not fully seated.

when using Jescar evo wire, I find that I only need a little spot leveling. Using the old standard Nickle-silver wire it takes a lot more effort to get things level.

-jd

Chamfer the edges of the fret slot for two reasons. Firstly, it lets the fret seat more fully. This is because the inside corner of the fret between the tang and fret is often not a sharp 90 degree corner, but can have a slight radius that presses against the sharp fret slot corner preventing a full seat.

Secondly, pulling frets can cause massive chipping which is greatly minimized when the fret slot has been beveled.

My hunch (and it is a hunch) is that a heavier hammer/mallet can make the frets spring back. Again, and it is personal, I feel I have much better control with a small polished hammer and tapping more lightly but numerous times, from edge to centre of the fretboard.
Bevelling the frets ends has a tendency to make the frets ends lift ever so slightly. I tap all of them once before running the file again, until there is no more wire sticking out (a bit like when you sharpen a chisel).

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Great discussion, guys! Nice to see input coming from all levels of expertise.
Goes to show that there's more than one way to skin the proverbial cat.
Regards to all.
Nelson Palen

funny but I'm not having much difficulty at all fretting now. I wipe a wet rag and use some titebond in the slots, then start hammering ends in first with a cheap made in china brass hammer, then tap in the middle part carefully. Haven't had to re level my first 12 frets at all. It's the neck joint that causes any problems. I don't think using a dead blow hammer sounds like a good idea.

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"Preoccupation with an effect gives it power and enhances the error"
from "Your Owner's Manual" by Burt Hotchkiss.

I asked this question of Mario many moons ago, and I never did get an answer.

Mario claimed (as do others ) that he did not need to do a fret levelling on his guitars.

My question to Mario was this , and it is also relevant to anybody else who maintains that their frets do not need levelling :

Can you adjust your truss rod to give a level configuration so accurate that when you mark all the fret tops with a sharpie, an accurate straight edge with a fine grit abrasive attached will give a uniform abrasion to every fret, at every string position (ie six different readings per fret) ?

If you can do that, then indeed , your frets do not need subsequent dressing.

If you cannot do that, then they do need dressing.

A few things:

-seating the fret is pretty difficult without chamfering the fret slots.
frets can appear to be seated and not be.

-glues (including epoxy) shrink significantly, and typically dense FB
woods accentuate the issue, so allowing adequate drying time is
prudent.

-attempting to hammer down a high fret can easily have the opposite
effect, particularly a fret end- using a hardwood caul across a couple
of frets to spread the impact can help.

-necks do funny things under string load which are not accounted for
by jigs and weights. Getting a flat plane under load is a very good start.

This is absolutely correct.
Once in a blue moon I have to re-level the frets under string tension, take the strings off and re-crown the frets. The fretboard plane and fret job were perfect, but some rare necks react randomly under tension.
Rick Turner gave a great tip a while ago in order to do this, a trued piece of 1/16" angled aluminium with 320 or 400 PSA sandpaper does a fine job of getting between strings and level the high spots.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Fillipo, I don't think your frets are fully bedded when you are doing the first leveling. My thought was to first just flex the neck before you fret so the frets will seat good. 0.1" sounds pretty good.

For fret leveling I've been using sandpaper on a flat object of one kind or another. Latest is a #5 plane body. I screwed up my first fret job with sandpaper on a level which led to my first re-fret. I like the idea of a nice flat, sharp mill file - and I have one in the shop that is either 8" or 10". I know exactly what you mean by being able to feel where the file is cutting and you just don't get that kind of feel with sandpaper. I'm going to try that.



As far as the quote above goes. I think most folks on the web look for consensus because there are always the one-off opinions out there and it is difficult to tell which ones are valid and which are not. Easier to take the main road. On the other hand, after hanging out at these guitar forums for 10+ years I've identified a handful of builders whose work and opinions I respect (Howard is for sure in this group). When these folks make recommendations, I pay attention.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Can you comment on that statement? I normally slot my fretboards deeper than the frets, then fill the sides with some stick shellack. Or are you talking about space between the frets and the top of the fretboard due to the "gunk" between them?

Thanks,
Steve

The Doc Watson approach to fret leveling ...

Me, I like to have visual evidence of what is happening to the frets, and the best way to get that evidence is with an accurate 19" sanding beam with a high grade abrasive.

I'd just like to chime in...
I neglected to chamfer the slots on my first build... had a hell of a time getting fret's to stay down..... and had to level twice as well....
I'll be chamfering my slots in the future...
Worst part is I'd read to do it... was planning to do so... and just forgot in the heat of the moment.....

Oh ya, lots of stuffs get forgotted in the heat of the moment.

Maybe thats why we has them moments...you think?



blessings

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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"3) too heavy a hammer could be bouncing the frets during install."

To an extent I agree, but - does it not depend how hard you use it. I feel a heavier hammer with a lighter hand can work well.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Many years ago, I built a Don Teeter String Compensation Jig. This is similar to the Earlwine jig. I made it for a particularly troublesome bass neck with crooked grain that took a dog leg bend when strung to tension. But since then I use the jig for every fret level job because it helps me get slightly lower action than doing without. This is more useful for electric guitars where the players want super low action, but it benefits my acoustic builds and re-frets too. It also is useful for classical guitars without a truss rod because it gives you a way to level the fretboard without string tension.

Am I right in assuming that you bed your bridge saddles in hide glue too?

Why not make all the frets adjustable height as in bridge/saddle on an archtop?
(Ducking and running now)