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Looks a lot better but I don't ever scallop the upper portion of the X-Brace. It's probably fine though and I am interested to hear what others say about that.

Looks a lot better. Still a little heavy for my taste. I would taper the cross-section of the braces so it is a triangle rather than a rounded rectangle. The idea here is that you lose strength directly proportional to the width of the brace, but lose strength proportional to the cube of the height- so making a brace 10% narrower makes it 10% less stiff. Make it 10% less high, and you lose 27% in stiffness (1-(0.9x0.9x0.9)). So making braces tall and narrow is more weight efficient than short and wide. But really narrow isn't the best either- less glue area to the top, more subject to buckling. So a triangular section is sorta the best of both worlds. Wide at the base for a good glue bond, narrow at the top to save weight. Rectangular through the X-brace intersection to keep good contact area between the braces there, and allow for the cap.

Also, as jfmckenna said, most people don't scallop the upper bout part of the X-braces. They want to have the upper bout bracing- X-braces and UTB stiff to keep the neck forces from distorting the top. I think you still have adequate stiffness there, I wouldn't worry about it.

On another subject, it is normal practice to run the upper tone bar all the way over to the lower part of the treble-side X-brace. You cut a small triangular section off the bridge plate to accomplish this. I'm not suggesting you "have" to do all these things, just so you know where you are relative to the Martin "ideal" that most people emulate. But many people try a lot of very different ideas, so there is no truly "correct" way to build. And as I said before, it's possible to modify the brace stiffness after the guitar is finished by using a small plane through the soundhole.

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Gene

Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason- Mark Twain

Thanks Guys , I do Really appreciate the feed back.

I wondered about the lower tone bar and actually had it all the way to the x brace and realized the bridge plate at that point was actually a bit thicker than the tone bar . So i decided to try this . Since its my first I wont be trying to sell it anyway and its a learning experience . ( prolly wont be able to give it away )

I did also wonder about the " Side Port in the upper bout " with a guitar this thick ( 4-3/4" ) Good Idea ? Bad Idea ?

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/

It looks to me like you are stopping the UTB and the upper arms of the X at the linings. I think most people push those through the sides. You want plenty of strength up there to fight back against the string tension. Everything else I taper to nothing before the linings.

and +1 on don't scallop the upper arms of the x.

Mike

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Mike Lindstrom

4 3/4" is too deep for a 000 type guitar, 4 1/2" is the maximum I would dare, and I've never done it. My A-2 & B-2 are usually between 4 1/8" and 4 1/4". You may get some extra bass (although with your bracing as is, it is not guaranteed), but at the cost of definition, clarity, attack and overtones. I have no idea if or why a soundport would alleviate that, IMHO not.
5 things strike me: the upper legs of the x-braces should not be weakened this way, the finger braces "double peak" seems weird, any reason? Your 1st tonebar stops at the bridgeplate edge, and the bridgeplate seems big. As been noted, the UTB should meet the linings with some meat, otherwise it defeats 50% of its purpose: you don't want it to flex at the edges, or anywhere.
Finally the bracing could be further lightened by triangulating everything but the UTB, but I'm stating that without knowing how thick and stiff your top is…

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Thank you for the honest and open suggestions . Thats what I asked for and wanted . I have tons to learn about this no doubt . A world of diffrence between this and Mandola's

Thank you everyone for your honest appraisal , I will keep u in the loop as I continue .

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/

Have you thought about which braces will be tucked into the sides and which will stop short of the sides? I'm certainly no expert but I agree with the group that likes to tuck only the transverse brace and the upper ends of the x brace into the sides for support. The lower ends of the x, the finger braces, and the tone bars are stopped short of the sides. I believe this method tends to loosen up the lower bout of the top for better sound.

All braces that are stopped short of the sides should be gently tapered down to zero height where they meet the top. From a structural perspective, feathering the brace ends to zero height reduces the tendency for the brace to pop loose if the top is hit.

edit: missed Mike's post on this.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

A port would reduce the bass response a bit, but I do not know enough about how it would affect the sound in its totality. I would make the port big though. most people make their ports too small. I am thinking that with the added depth of the box, you might have had too much bass and adding the port would diminish that, but to what degree is hard to tell.

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

Tony, adding a soundport may increase the Helmholtz resonance in frequency. However, in reality I haven't noticed it decreasing bass response on any guitar, any size. IMHO too large a soundport decreases the overall sound quality too much on flat tops. Small ports seem to work best, with the minimum negative effect on the overall tone, which I believe ports have. Besides, with such heavy bracing it is doubtful that there will be too much bass response…

Todd's suggestion may be drastic, but that would be the best way to learn IMHO… Of course, there's no way to know the accuracy of any judgement before the guitar is strung up, and the advice you get is what you pay for on a public forum…

I'll repeat my first suggestion, try to look at as many braced tops as you can. Pictures are available all over the Internet, and basic designs have worked well for decades for a reason.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Looking better. One more believer that you should tuck the UTB and upper arms of the x-brace into the linings and should not scoop the upper x-brace. You can still pretty easily take off the UTB you have on now and replace it with one that tucks into the linings. The x-brace would be way more work to replace, and a more appropriate UTB might help avoid the negative affects of not tucking in the x-brace arms. As Todd mentioned, scrapping the x-brace and making a new one would provide a good learning opportunity. On my last one, I glued and removed 2 different UTBs before I got it right (First try, the hide glue apparently gelled on me; second try, the joint wasn't perfect in one spot; third time seemed to be a charm). No fun, but I'd rather make it right at this point than complete the guitar and find out I need to retop after stringing it up or shortly thereafter.

Your x-braces still seems pretty massive in the upper arms even with the scooping you've done, and I would imagine they will still offer sufficient support (though I don't know how failing to tuck the legs into the linings will affect the integrity of the upper bout).

As Laurent mentioned, the double peak finger braces seem odd. I would take off the peak closest to the linings, tapering down smoothly (or slightly scooping) from the first peak (which may or may not start too close to your x-brace) to nothing just short of the lining.

As others have mentioned, triangulate everything you can, with minor exceptions. I triangulate everything but the upper arms of the x-brace and UTB.

As an aside, I've only braced two guitars that have been strung up and played for a while now. On both, knowing the tendency for new builders to over-brace, I pushed myself to build on the lighter side. The first didn't deviate too far from the plans, but was braced a touch lighter. The second, after finishing carving the braces, I was certain I would learn how to re-top a guitar. It was very lightly braces (especially for a dread), pretty flexible in the lower bout, but had a great tap tone that decayed slowly. I went ahead with it thinking that I would learn a lot even if it failed. If it didn't fail, I knew it would sound pretty good and be very responsive. It's been strung up for some time now with custom light strings and sounds great with only a slight bulge behind the bridge. My point being . . . don't be afraid to push yourself past your comfort zone when tuning your top because as a newbie your comfort zone is almost always going to lie outside the most desirable configuration.

Aaron

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Aaron Craig

I third Todd's suggestion to remove the braces and give it another go. I start with 1/4" wide and 1/2" tall on my 15.5" body. Don't be discouraged by it! My first took 10 years and four or five failed efforts!

I would also HIGHLY recommend John Mayes' Advanced Voicing DVD to give some guidance and modeling insofar as what to listen for, etc. That and Kent Everett's voicing DVD were giant steps forward for me. An investment in getting better faster.

I would suggest spending some time reviewing the photos in this thread at UMGF:

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.y ... NG-LIBRARY

I've found there is a lot to be learned by studying bracing photos!

Several comments, to me taken with a grain of salt.

1. Body depth???? I built a 4 3/4" deep 15"ish guitar and to me it had an "in the cave" tone. I removed the back and cut the depth to 4 1/4" and it gained response, volume and clarity, with no lost bass. Laurent's a really smart guy, and a great builder. I (think I've) come to understand alot of stuff by looking at how Laurent and another select few do stuff, and then trying to figure out why they do things the way they do.

2. I think the loose back could add a little bass if it doesn't cave in, fold up, or otherwise disintegrate. I also think if you rely too much on the back for your voice you could end up with a funny sounding guitar if the player holds it against their body.

3. The top braces look massive to me, but................................................................it's just a picture. The bridge plate looks big too. Somogyi style builders use big bridge plates, but use super thin tops. They also use alot of braces, but the braces are usually small. (at least from what I've seen)

4. Quit carving on the top braces. Glue them on full sized, then shape them to get the tone you're looking for.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

Thank you everyone for the response on this thread .

I have decided to glue this up as I have it now and finish the build . I think I want to string it up and hear the tone for myself ( not that I doubt any of you ) and then if / as I need to I will take the back off and work it down that way .

Again Thanks . I will keep my updates posted !

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/

Working on the Mahogany Neck for the purple heart build now , I have cut slots for carbon fibre and truss rod . The rod I bought on here and have no instructions for it . As you can see by the markings I have it ending under the nut . this puts in 2-5/8" into mt neck block , or just short of going all the way through the neck block .

Should I be under the nut here ? or maybe even deeper into head ?



As Always I appreciate your feedback . I may not always listen , but I do appreciate your Feedback.

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/

Hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like the truss rod may be set too deeply into the neck of the guitar, e.g. too close to the nut. I set mine with the adjustment "nut" prutruding from the tenon. As you show it here - the wrench may need to go deep into the neckblock then into the tenon to edject the neck. On second thought, looks like you may not have cut the final tenon yet. If not, then I'd say you've positioned it too deep (too close to the nut)

On the other end of the neck, I look for my truss rods to end midway between the nut and the first fret.

Your back is set up to split at either side of the center reinforcement.

Where did you get the top bracing size and pattern? This is your first guitar? I guess copying a Martin would be too dull.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Thats what i was wondering about , no tennon isnt cut , I have it ending under the nut , I could glue a carbon fibre insert in and move it back a bit , the truss rod isnt set in yet.

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/

Just above your last post , I have asked a second question here at the end of the top and back post question .
Instead of starting a new thread , i thought i would continue further questions on the build in same thread .


I bought the pattern as a plexi pattern from one of our esteemed supporters here , as for the bracing scallops etc: I basically did that mysef . I tend to walk off the beaten path and while the beaten path is there for a reason and works , I am always asking myself what if . SOOOOOO I ask for advice and want it , however , I usally do so as a guidline moreso than a set idea , if that makes sense .

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/

it actually does.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

You do not want your truss rod to extend anywhere past, or even too close to, the break angle of the peghead. Just extend the nut side of the rod under the fretboard extension (inside the body). I hope you drilled a hole in your UTB before closing the box.
The best way to install this kind of rod is to rout a hair deeper (be careful to leave enough wood between the bottom of the rod and the back of the neck) and cap it with a thin piece of hardwood (mahogany, maple, whatever). Like this you do not have to grind the metal in order to level your neck surface. The CF bars look wide, how deep are they?

Howard's comment is on the money. It always makes sense to start with a known and proven design. Not only will the structural stuff be taken care of until you truly understand the how and why. But how will you know where and what to change on your next build in order to affect what?

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Thanks to all three of you for looking .

The carbon fiber rods ae .250 x .200 and end at the nut / edge of fretboard . The truss rod extends just past to end at nut, .130 longer "approx" I have this Slot approx .062" deeper than truss rod . Yes the hole is cut in UTB .

When I start laying out my necks I make the neck surface level and straight , and the cut all my angle " headstock & Tennon/ heel cuts " to the level neck surface so the surface always remains level through the build.

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/