Official Luthiers Forum!

Craig Hoover is the head biologist directly under:

Robert R. Gabel
Chief, Division of Management Authority
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service/International Affairs
4401 North Fairfax Drive, Room 212
Arlington, Virginia 22203, USA

I did not make note of Mr Hoover's official title, but he is the boss when it comes to CITES and species.
You should call and speak directly to him. If he tells you something different than he told me then there is no hope of knowing what is real. If you want his number PM me.

When I spoke to him I was very specific about wanting to export a guitar that contained a mahogany neck and we discussed what the requirements are. I did take the time to ask him to review the CITES restrictions for the species. I told him the guitar was being exported as a commercial sale not for personal use.
If you called the office and spoke with a "generic" biologist and asked a simple question like "what is needed to export a CITES 2 species" then you may have gotten a correct answer about what permits are required. Did you make it clear to the person you spoke with that it is CITES species but that the finished form of the species is exempt from CITES? When dealing with federal permits you have to basically tell them how to do their job.

I'm not trying to argue any points just trying to to help walk down a difficult trail.

_________________
Lance Peck

I PM'd you. I spoke with a examiner, Bob Williams and a biologist, Amneris Siaca. Both DMA.

Regarding pre-ban Brazilian rosewood, if a new guitar were to be made using salvaged Brazilian rosewood from an unrestorable older instrument, it wouldn't matter how old that guitar was or what sort of paperwork accompanies it. Unfortunately, even with legitimate documentation the age of the original guitar doesn't carry over to the use of its woods in another one; instead, the new instrument assumes the date of its recent remanufacture, thus now making it post-ban and illegal to sell or to import/export. In fact, if the old guitar had been repaired using even the tiniest bit of BR, it would have resulted in its legal age being moved forward to the date of the new repair, with the same insane results.

If no paper documentation can be produced, CITES Appendix I materials are illegal to use in a commercial transaction no matter how old they actually are. With antiques, there is provision to have the age of a piece certified by a recognized expert in that particular field, but this may or may not fly depending on the mood of the agent you're dealing with. It would be almost impossible for anyone to do the same with a piece of raw wood.

Brazilian rosewood lumber with papers pre-dating the ban ("legacy" material) is totally legal for any luthier to buy, sell, and ship. But as soon as a luthier cuts it into back and side sets the wood by reason of being substantially changed in form looses its exempt status and is legally no older than the date it was remanufactured, making it now post-ban and illegal! This principle applies to recycling any CITES Class I listed materials from antiques or old instruments (such as tortoiseshell, ivory, and Brazilian rosewood) and such an antique can not even be repaired or restored using new material without thus losing its exempt dating status. It’s the exact same regulatory restriction which prevents guitar picks being made from recycled antique tortoiseshell bracelets, combs, and boxes.

Here's a typical regulation, among others, this one concerning import or export:

Title 19, SS 10.53 – Antiques(e) Antique articles otherwise prohibited entry by the Endangered Species Act of 1973 (16 U.S.C. 1521, et seq.) may be entered if: (1) The article is composed in whole or in part of any endangered or threatened species listed in 50 CFR 17.11 [animals] or 17.12 [plants], (2) The article is not less than 100 years of age, (3) The article has not been repaired or modified with any part of any such endangered or threatened species, on or after December 28, 1973, (4) The article is entered at a port designated in 12.26 of this chapter, (5) A Declaration for Importation or Exportation of Fish or Wildlife (USFWS Form 3177) is filed at the time of entry with the port director who will forward the form to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and (6) The importer meets the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section.

If you look at how to comply with the law there is a way to make the new item certified.
First you must have CITES documentation on the old pre ban or post ban legal wood.
You can transform that wood into a new form. (And yes that new forms date starts when the old form was converted.)
Then you can submit the old documents with a declaration that the new form is made from the old form.
Based on this they will issue new documents for the new form. BUT they keep records so don't try to make too many new guitars out of one old one.

I went over this situation with F&W. I used that table that was talked about a short time ago.

Step1 Old BRW table, get CITES documents on it
Step2 Measure and document the volume of wood in the old table.
Step3 Cut up the old table into 40 guitar sets.
Step4 Submit a CITES application for 40 BRW guitar sets That were created from the destruction of the CITES ceertified table.
Step5 If it is believable that the 40 sets could be created from the table F&W will issue new CITES to cover the 40 sets.

Even without CITES certification you can legally sell the wood as long as you do not cross the international border.

_________________
Lance Peck

I have 2 businesses which there were questions about. An antiques business which specializes in small items of marine shell, ivory, tortoiseshell, and some woods (none listed by CITES) mostly dating from the 1800's to early 1900's, and the Duke of Pearl which supplies shell (and some ivory) inlay products. F&W had questions regarding import, export, purchases, and sales of everything, specifically asking for purchase and sales receipts (and import/export documents) on all the ivory and tortoiseshell I've ever bought, sold, or have in possession, as well as access to shell records for the inlay materials. I've dealt these things since the mid 1960's, have owned hundreds of tusks and tortoiseshell items, and have had a Federal Ivory Dealer's License and Symbol Marking Permit, as well as a Class II federal license (in the mid 1970's) to purchase tortoiseshell from Class I turtle farms in the Cayman Islands.

The investigator expressed surprise that I was able to produce some form of paper trail for almost everything going as far back as 1965, saying that most people have a hard time coming up with paperwork for even the last 2 or 3 years. It turns out that buying or selling even legitimately antique tortoiseshell is completely illegal, as is commercially reworking the antiques or making guitar picks by recycling damaged items, regardless of whether the transactions are international, interstate, or intrastate. Similar restrictions apply to ivory, although some activity is allowed.

She also had questions about some Blue Morpho butterfly wings and Jewel Beetles that I'd recently brought in from Costa Rica and Malaysia, and asked quite specific questions about things she could only have known through accessing private emails. She originally introduced herself as doing a routine check on F&W Import/Export Permit holders, but it immediately became clear that this was anything but a "routine" investigation!

It's a long story, an experience I wouldn't wish on anyone else, and I spent over 1,000 hours dealing with it and researching the regs since last March 4th! I wasn't allowed to sell any antiques for most of last year, since the agency was initially unsure about some legality issues. These aren't folks you want to have knocking on your door, although our particular agent was one with a heart who went to bat for us and managed to convince the head office to back off on "many tens of thousands of dollars worth of citations" (which would have involved extensive confiscations and financially bankrupted us!). It still cost me $4,050.00 to take care of just two citations involving recent sales of antique tortoiseshell.

But having gone through the experience has vastly increased my awareness of some complex and generally unfamiliar laws, and allowed us to put both businesses into strict compliance with the regs, a much safer position, so am not whining about the affair!

As of today, the government representatives who'll be participating in the June 11 ASIA Workshop on CITES and Lacey Act issues are:

George Balady, APHIS Agriculturist (Staff Officer) in USDA's Riverdale, MD, office, a specialist charged with APHIS' role in the Lacey Act.

Craig Hoover, Chief, Branch of Operations, USFWS Division of Management Authority, in Arlington, VA. He's a Chief Biologist and will be accompanied by someone from their Branch of Permits, and possibly also with a third F&W agent from their Office of Law Enforcement.

Although David and I know a fair amount about the regs, with this much professional heat in the room we plan to just shut up and listen along with everyone else. We're very pleased that these busy guys are willing to travel and work on a weekend to help us out, and are welcoming them to hang for the day and be available to mix with attendees and continue informal discussions (for which there may be a room available after the lunch break, if needed).