Official Luthiers Forum!

Oh no! I've been using Titebond II for everything! I hope my guitars survive. I'm out to pickup original now!

While I consider it to be a less than optimal choice, TB II can be safely used to assemble guitars. Indeed, companies such as PRS and Taylor use it for RF curing. However, it is a pain to reverse such joints for disassembly due to their water resistance. For stresses experienced by guitars creep is not a major concern provided quality PVA adhesives are used.

I also cannot recommend Titebond Extend enough. It is without question my weapon of choice for all general purpose assembly operations on guitars.

I used titebond 2 on my 1st few guitars. The only problems i've seen are some lifting on the bridges. Titebond 2 and 3 have some creep. I changed to titebond 1 a few guitars later, and no issues with that since. Now I only use fish glue because I like the tackiness of it and you can wipe it off almost instantly after it drys. It keeps longer too.

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Jason Moe
LaCrosse WI 54601

Hugh, that's exactly what I want, I want it to not fall off when the neck is steamed out in the future.
If someone needed it off, they can chisel or route it off. The dovetail itself will be glued into the neck block with Hide Glue. That way, my hope is, that when one steams off the neck, the dovetail will release, but the one thick shim I glued will remain in place(on the devetail). Other, regular thin shims for fit would be glued with HHG also.

So, good, that's what I wanted to hear.

Allow me to clarify: Titebond II has a chance of surviving exposure to steam but still has the potential to delaminate. If you need to be absolutely certain that steam will not separate an adhesive bond you should consider epoxy, urea-formaldehyde (although it is not as good as it once was,) or possibly polyurethane. Those are listed in order of preference.

I still insist that too much concern is placed on creep performance. Just to prove a point, I might just glue up a test rig to simulate a guitar with strings at full tension and pop it in an oven at increasing temperatures until failure occurs. It would be possible to measure changes in geometry attributable to creep during the test. I have temperature data from guitars shipped in hard cases and gig bags that was recorded over several months. The maximum temperature was around 140°F. At that temperature I would not be even concerned about Titebond III (which I have seen failures from in exterior doors.) Cheap white glues could definitely fail at that temperature, but any decent wood glue will hold up just fine.

Thanks for the clarification, Hugh. Good info, appreciated.

really can't argue with that at all...I used TII for years and years until I became aware of the creep issue...TIII doesn't dry nearly as hard as TII which can only mean it would be far worse...had a lot of experience with TIII lately as it is being required for me to use in the field, I guess in the big picture it might hold a joint a bit longer because it actually does allow movement before failure, but the times I've had to go back and clean up after somebody's sloppy work (in the form of blobs of glue) and found the stuff pretty soft (which certainly helps in keeping a chisel sharp!) makes me know it would be worthless for lutherie....

Your talking the white stuff right? Many hear gorilla glue and automatically think of the poly stuff. I have a bottle of this and bought it to experiment with but haven't used it on a guitar yet. So have you used it for this and if so what did you use it on?. Whats your opinion on it?...Mike

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Guitars, guitars and more guitars.

Yep, the white stuff. There's not much I would recommend using it for on a guitar... Perhaps laminating sides, wood binding, or other special applications where a type II PVA can be useful. I've used it in competitive analysis against TB II and a few other TB products. More than anything I would use it for outdoor furniture or projects that could see direct contact with water. Particularly on very light colored woods such as maple or birch, where dye could bleed through from the glueline. Gorilla wood glue is dye free and dries clear. It's simply a nice product. TB Tongue & Groove is similar, but still contains some dye, is more expensive, and much more difficult to find.

So, there are a few good special applications for it in luthiery, but most uses are in other projects.

hey Hugh,

any thoughts on the Titebond white glue?

They have several, although the main one being pushed right now is TB Translucent. It has remarkably similar handling and performance characteristics to TB White Glue (which was discontinued around the time Translucent was released.) I can't say they are identical products, but it would be difficult to tell them apart even with a analytical chemistry lab at your disposal.

Unfortunately, they haven't made a really good white glue for several years. During my time there I made several attempts to convince marketing to explore developing a line of dye free versions of the flagship product line. To this day I surprised they didn't go with it. Dyes are extremely expensive, and the copy writes itself: "Our scientists took the products you trust and made them colorless." If I had enough cash sitting around to finance it I think it would be easy to sell. The problem is that they don't usually like to make less than 500 gallons of a product per year. So, as it stands right now, there are no white glues I would recommend for normal use. TB Melamine Glue is very soft and can work well installing bindings... But that's about it.

thanks for the insight...was looking at the product line and noticed that being listed and I wondered if it was comparable to TI but dried clear

titebond 1 for guitars. 2 and 3 for picnic tables.

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Jason Moe
LaCrosse WI 54601

Actually... I would prefer TB Original for guitars, TB II for picnic tables, and TB III for wood cutting boards. Especially avoid TB III outside if the piece is made from dark wood or will have a dark finish. I've seen more failures from III since its release than II in its history. Unfortunately, I cannot and will not go into the details aside from stating that TB III is only appropriate for specific special applications. Cutting boards are my personal favorite example. As I always said during phone calls: "No one expects their wood cutting board will ever go through a dishwasher... But when it is, it won't fail it you assemble it with Titebond III." Sadly, I understand my line was stolen and butchered by someone at IWF.

Very interesting post Evan.. thanks... Just a question for my curiousity... what is the catalyst in these glues?

My name is Hugh, people mix that up with my last name rather often for some reason.

Although polymers that react the right way with catalyst are the more important factor, I'm pretty sure Franklin still considers the catalysts a trade secret... Which is waaaay more trouble than I would want to deal with. I even reported that information was leaked by whoever they sent to IWF last year out of concern that it would be easy to point fingers at me.

What I will say is that if you dig around a little bit you can probably figure out what the catalyst is. You might start by looking at two part catalyzed wood glues. It's not really a secret to any other companies in the industry. So figuring it out shouldn't be too hard. Sorry to be so cryptic.

Being a bit of a numpty I have just glued up my soundboard together using TBIII. Am I going to run into problems with this and should I cut it apart again and re-glue it?

Hugh, I'm curious about the properties of TB Extend that, in your opinion, are best for guitar making?

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Thank You and Best To All

It has a long open time of 15 minutes depending on temperature and humidity, the best thermal resistance and resistance to creep of any PVA in the Titebond product line (I never encountered anything during competitive testing that rivaled it either), and it can be steamed apart for maintenance. Those are all facts. In terms of opinion, it handles nicely, I trust it, and subjectively it seems to form a more rigid glueline than other adhesives which could improve resonance although I have no evidence to back that up.

Thanks Hugh, very much appreciate the comments and clarification.

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Thank You and Best To All

Anyone? Anyone! Hey you, reading this now, what do you think? I clearly don't know my arse from my elbow so any advice would be greatly appreciated!

The distributor for Franklin's product in Taiwan for some reason carries Titebond II, III, dark, construction adhesive, liquid hide glue, but not Titebond Original. I don't know why, the only way is pay through the nose to order it from Stewmac.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

"glued up my sound board"?? Not exactly sure what that means - braces to sound board? Sound board to sides? Not sure it matters but from what I'm reading here is that 'cold creep', the tendency to move slightly under stress, can happen more easily with TB II and III than with TB I. Personally I would not worry about it in any guitar application other than the bridge which will experience - by far - the most stress on a guitar. I used TB II on an entire guitar, except the bridge after reading this thread with no ill effects and don't expect to see any. I'd say sleep well and switch to TB I for the remainder of the guitar.

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Thank You and Best To All

Thanks Larry. I meant joining the two halves of the soundboard together. I appreciate the response.

picked some extend from my local Rockler, gluing on the neck block, I like the open time

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MK5acoustics.com