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 Post subject: Re: Very cool device
PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:04 pm 
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fingerstyle1978 wrote:
Well, I'm out of space on the breaker. Like I said, there is one line coming in off of one side of the breaker which is split into four 15 amp circuits. Even though it comes in on one line, as long as it is plugged into two different circuits it will work, at least the tech claims it will work. If not I'll return it for a full refund.

What is all the hostility? Do I have money to burn? Absolutely not, I simply do not have any other way of getting 220 without upgrading my 100 amp service, digging a hole from the house to the shop which would involve jackhammering concrete and asphalt to bury a new line. We are talking about thousands of dollars, or time that I do not have. So a $250 solution for me is completely reasonable.

Now. Not being a sparky I don't know whether there was a more feasible/cost effective solution or not. I simply found this solution to work for me, if it in fact works. Questioning my fiscal responsibility and looking down your nose at my decision are in my opinion completely uncalled for. If that is how you feel, please keep those comments to yourself. However if you can offer a better solution to my dilemma, please feel free to chime in. I was only hoping to help others who are in similar situations.


I don't think anyone is feeling hostile or looking down their nose. Those of us with electrical/electronics knowledge are just trying to be helpful. I don't know what you do for living but if I was mucking about in your area of specialization I would hope that you would give me the benefit of your advice. In the meantime Chris' advice is good - get a couple of electricians out there to give you written estimates. At least then you'll know better what you have and what it would take to upgrade.

That said, if you do end up deciding the device is for you then I hope it works well and does what you want.

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 Post subject: Re: Very cool device
PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:21 pm 
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Here is what I don't understand. I know you have to tie both sides of the breaker together in order to get 220. However, my uncle claims that the single line coming into the shop is 110, which I have a hard time buying. the single main coming in is pushing 60 amps which has been broken into four 15 amp 110 circuits which are on independent fuses. to me that seems like too much to be running on a single 110 main, but again, I am no electrician and I only know what I have read up on recently (which is very little). Several people have suggested that it sounds like the 220 is already there, it's just currently wired to 110. I am having an electrician look at it today so I should have an answer soon. Is it even possible to have 60 amps running on a 110 line? I have no idea, but I was under the impression that 110 was limited to 20/30 amps per breaker.


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 Post subject: Re: Very cool device
PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:25 pm 
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Oh and thanks for the help, I wasn't trying to be rude or offensive, I truly appreciate all of the advice that I have found here on a wide variety of topics. I just haven't been myself lately. As far as being rich or independently wealthy, I am neither. I am in the military and I just returned from Iraq. I have a new bandsaw that takes 220, which I am trying to get set up.


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 Post subject: Re: Very cool device
PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:33 pm 
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From one vet to another - welcome home. My son just got back from Iraq about a month ago. We compared his middle east experiences to mine from the 70's. Surprising how much was still the same.

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 Post subject: Re: Very cool device
PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:52 pm 
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Quote:
the single main coming in is pushing 60 amps


OK, if I'm understanding this right, there's a 60 amp breaker (somewhere) feeding your shop. Is it a single pole or double pole breaker.
This is a double pole breaker (images from Lowes)
Image
This is also a double pole breaker. It's only got one lever, but notice the double width.
Image
This is a single pole breaker. Notice how narrow it is.
Image

If the breaker feeding your shop is a double pole it's 220. You just need a double pole breaker for the box in your shop......or you could make your own "device" like the one you've ordered.

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 Post subject: Re: Very cool device
PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:06 pm 
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Welcome back. I'm A little cranky lately too since I got laid off and I'm a bit stress too. The amps will determine the wire size/gage. The more amps. the larger the wire needs to be. An amp is the unit of measure for a certain number of electrons that I don't remember at the moment, something like 7.13 X 10 to the eighteenth power electrons. If you have only leg coming over to the fuse box you might be able to drive a ground rod out there and do a little rewiring if the conductors are all sized right. The electrician will know.
Can the motor on the saw be wired for 110? If it can you might be better off just running it on 110. You might have to run some #12 and and use a 20 amp fuse for that circuit.


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 Post subject: Very cool device
PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:10 pm 
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If you are out of room, consider replacing some of your low duty circuits with half width breakers. Do two that way (side by side) and u will have enough room to add the double pole 240 breaker!!! It's that easy! But do choose low duty circuits ( outlets , etc). If ur out of room, make room. That toy for creating 220 is not worth the money or hassle.


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 Post subject: Re: Very cool device
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:05 am 
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Some panels won't accept stacked or mini or waffle breakers, depends on the panel and buss configuration. Plus you have to make sure the circuits you are moving around aren't sharing a common neutral or you can overload the neutral if you put both circuits on the same leg then the neutral will carry the total load of both circuits instead of the difference of the load if they were on different legs. Again, have a compentent and knowledgable electrician look at this stuff. The problem is every guy with a pair of Kliens will tell you his an electrician. :)


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 Post subject: Very cool device
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:29 am 
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I am not an electrician, don't even know what kleins are. But just as in building guitars, I ask the pros for advice. Most pro builders do not tell us to go buy a Taylor or make us feel bad for asking, but rather they give up a few secrets to help us DIYers along. Most of us are here because we like doing things ourselves. And saving a little money is not bad either.


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 Post subject: Re: Very cool device
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:37 am 
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hey, sounds like you've got a 60 amp panel,
and have a 15 amp breaker with 14 gage wire feeding your shop,
which is powering 4 or 5 plugs?
15 amps ain't much when you get into large tools.
you should find out the amperage rating on the tools you plan on using.
a skil model 77 can blow a 15 breaker.
maybe you could do all the hard work for the electrician,
like running the conduit, maybe the wire, etc.
if you have a 220 breaker in your panel, for a dryer or elec range, you could put a bigger one in,
bigger wires to a panel, then feed your dryer and shop from that.
have somebody figure your total house demand, (everything on at the same time),
and make sure you arn't gonna fry the panel.


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 Post subject: Re: Very cool device
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:58 am 
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Mike O'Melia wrote:
I am not an electrician, don't even know what kleins are. But just as in building guitars, I ask the pros for advice. Most pro builders do not tell us to go buy a Taylor or make us feel bad for asking, but rather they give up a few secrets to help us DIYers along. Most of us are here because we like doing things ourselves. And saving a little money is not bad either.


Thank you mike I agree .

We tend to push ideas sometimes without knowing the whole situation . Some suggestions "especially" electrical can get someone who lacks experience hurt or even killed .

This device is a good option for those who need 220 occasionally and dont have the ability to do otherwise .

Can it be done cheaper yes Is it the most desired solution no will it work and give him desired results probably Has this guy ever opened a panel dont know quite frankly I am hoping he will give us feed back on its usefullness to him .

I am a do it yourselfer . Have hooked up 200 amp panel , have also been nailed and wet myself . Quite frankly I dont want to see anyone else nailed like that .

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 Post subject: Re: Very cool device
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:24 pm 
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woody b wrote:
Quote:
the single main coming in is pushing 60 amps


OK, if I'm understanding this right, there's a 60 amp breaker (somewhere) feeding your shop. Is it a single pole or double pole breaker.
This is a double pole breaker (images from Lowes)
Image
This is also a double pole breaker. It's only got one lever, but notice the double width.
Image
This is a single pole breaker. Notice how narrow it is.
Image

If the breaker feeding your shop is a double pole it's 220. You just need a double pole breaker for the box in your shop......or you could make your own "device" like the one you've ordered.


I have an electrician looking at it this evening, so I should have a definitive answer by tonight.


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 Post subject: Re: Very cool device
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:20 pm 
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fingerstyle1978 wrote:

I have an electrician looking at it this evening, so I should have a definitive answer by tonight.


Good. Let us know what the electrician says....

Cheers
John


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 Post subject: Re: Very cool device
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:03 pm 
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Mike O'Melia wrote:
I am not an electrician, don't even know what kleins are. But just as in building guitars, I ask the pros for advice. Most pro builders do not tell us to go buy a Taylor or make us feel bad for asking, but rather they give up a few secrets to help us DIYers along. Most of us are here because we like doing things ourselves. And saving a little money is not bad either.

If this is directed to me then I'll just say I've given you some answers to some of the examples stated and how they can get you in trouble or killed or burn down your house if you don't understand what you are doing and don't know the whole story when it comes to electric.
When it comes to electric, do it yourselfers are getting killed or hurt or hurting others or destroying things more then qualified electricians are. It's dangerous to give advice to someone as how to do something with electric since it just might be enough to get them in trouble.
I've also explained why that devise is unsafe and doesn't meet the Code and probably doesn't have a UL stamp on it. Giving out advice on guitars won't get you killed in a flash or disfigured or burn something down. When it comes to electric and you don't know what you are doing it's always best to have an electrician look at it and if you go a head and do the work yourself and aren't familiar with it then it's also best to have a qualified electrician or electrical inspector look it over. But I'm not about to tell someone with apparently little to no experiance with electric how to get into a panel and start rewiring things. You might be surprized to know that there are a lot of people who don't even know what electric is. I ask some people that from time to time and one guy said, " It's what makes the light go on when I turn on the switch."
So I'm glad Joey has taken the right advice and called an Electrician.
I could also tell you how to make one of those boxes for about $20 too but that's an improper and wrong way to do it. I could also tell you to just nail a neck on from the outside and use duplex nails to make a re set easier down the road. Plus the duplex nail can be used as a strap button. :)


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 Post subject: Very cool device
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:33 pm 
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Nothing is directed at anyone. I understand that electrical work is your balywick. (sp??) And guitar building is not entirely safe either. Table saws, routers, etc. I clearly stated that if one was not inclined electrically, then hire it done. I think most people here are old enough and mature enough to make proper decisions. And, if I know how to do something, I will pass that advice along, with proper warnings. I don't believe in nanny state anything. I don't think it is nice to knock folks for asking questions, or to knock folks for attempting to answer them. And if someone gets hurt, it's their fault, not yours or mine. To the OP, if you do not know anything about AC power, phase, etc, you should not mess with this... But I already said that. That said, u have been given plenty of advice and warning. So, for the rest of us, can this thread please die so it does not result in more angst? It is not wort it.


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 Post subject: Re: Very cool device
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:30 pm 
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I haven't knocked anyones advise that has been safe and without room for error. I've corrected things that have been stated incorrectly or given a heads up to somethings.
Sure, I could have said nothing and let someone just throw in some mini breakers and when they didn't put the hots back on their correct leg and the neutral overloaded and started a fire and burned down the house when everyone was sleeping. Yeah, it wouldn't have been my fault, that was Mike's idea and I don't want to Nanny anyone.
You can't assume anything about people when it comes to giving them advise about electric and wiring. And you shouldn't give advise about electric especially getting into panels and power distribution when you aren't qualified and don't know all the facts.
Sorry Mike but that's not ment to hurt your feelings and I'm not mad or angery or anything other then concerned but that's just the way it is when it comes to electric.
I've been doing it for 31 years now and there's still stuff that I'm learning and you wouldn't believe some of the shabby and dangerous work I've come across in those years. That's why I suggest maybe getting a couple of guys or gals to look at it if Joey isn't certain about the electricians qualifications. There are a lot of guys out there with some good BS. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Very cool device
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:58 pm 
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Actually I'm glad I kept following this thread, you never know where a good idea is going to pop up.
Of course the idea I'm referring to is the duplex nail for neck/body join making for an easy reset and doubling as a strap button. laughing6-hehe

Careful there Chris, that could probably get you in almost as much trouble as the padma's shop bondo tips! :lol:

Joe


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 Post subject: Re: Very cool device
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:18 pm 
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Just be sure to drill a smaller pilot hole first. I wouldn't want anyone to split the heel.
You can fix any dings that a slipped hammer might cause in the side with some dyed Bondo forsure. ;)


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 Post subject: Very cool device
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:48 pm 
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Ok, everbody involved with thread or following, please go to ur freezer, get the Yagermiester out and pour one. Now, everybody lift your glass. Here's to the art of guitar building and the folks here who make it so much fun! Toss er down. Grimmace and say that was awsome! Chris, no offense given or taken. Let's get back to what we all agree on! Peace!

All of you are awsome and have helped me a bunch. Especially Chris!

Mike


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 Post subject: Re: Very cool device
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:29 pm 
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Thanks Chris, for stickin' with your good advice... DIY is good for some things... but, surgery, prairie burns, hair cuts and electrical are best left for the professionals!

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 Post subject: Very cool device
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:42 pm 
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That's a bunch of BS. I do all of my own brain surgery. Nevr problem yet a had. Thppppppp !


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 Post subject: Re: Very cool device
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:04 pm 
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hey, i finally went and looked at that thing,
and it sounds sketchy to me, because they say you shouldn't go thru gfi's.
i wonder which neutral they pick up, one or the other or both?
whaddya think, chris?
i know the neutral can be shared with two hots,
as long as they're coming from opposite bus bars.
i'd still be concerned with amperage.


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 Post subject: Re: Very cool device
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:19 pm 
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there's generally only one neutral coming to the house to go with the two hots. in the breaker box, there's really only one neutral that handles both legs of hots.

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 Post subject: Re: Very cool device
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:28 pm 
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They aren't picking up any neutral, they are probably just wire nutted together in the box or just capped off. The 220 is between the two hot legs. The reason it won't work through GFIs is because the GFI measures the current on the hot wire and also the current on it's neutral. They should always be equal as what goes in goes out and if there is a difference of 5mili amp. or greater the GFI trips because that means there is a fault current going out somewhere and hopefully not through you to ground. That's why some power tools or saws use to trip the GFI on jobs if they arcked too much the GFI would trip or if the extension cord got wet it would trip . But that's because it was doing it's designed job of reading a fault current. That's also why a GFI circuit down stream from the GFI has to maintain a dedicated neutral. They determaned over 5mili amp is dangerous to people. I'm not sure how they tested for that.
I guess if you plugged that box into a outlet where the polarity was reversed on the outlet (which isn't all that uncommon every now and then)you would get a nice surprize and and see some sparks. Just hope the breaker trips. I've seen a lot of old GE breakers that don't trip.
Edit:
The service only has one neutral because it only carries the unbalanced load between the legs. The neutral just goes to the earth ground and is grounded at the service and the transformer out on the pole. I would have to explain power generation to you all and electro magnetic ..... Call a qualified electrician. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Very cool device
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:15 am 
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Here is the final answer.

Very Cool Device is going back. Patience is not one of my virtues so I'll likely get hit with shipping charges. My mistake anyways for looking for a hasty solution.

Like I said, the box is full. However there is already 220 in the basement, the saw just wont fit being that the basement is 6' and the saw is about 6' 5". Additionally the shop is about 20 feet behind the house, running on the previously described 110 which has actually been broken up into 3 circuits (not 4) in the shop with a junction box. Even though each fuse is capable of carrying 20 amps, none of them are actually carrying that load. It's just not possible. When the shop was built there was only a 60 amp service (1950's). So the power was carried in on a 12/2 110 load, not 220. It was originally my late grandfathers, but he had no need for 220, especially in 1950 when he was on a 60 amp service and using non industrial grade tools for a reupholstering business.

Since then there has been an upgrade to a 100 amp service in order to run central air and other devices. For some reason, they prefer electric stoves to natural gas, which incidentally they also have. In addition to the electric range in the kitchen, there is also one in the basement, both occupying a 220 breaker. However the basement range is rarely, if ever used. So I am just going to run a 50' 10/3 220V extension cord out of that socket, out the basement window and into the shop temporarily. Once I find a place of my own down in DC I will be moving all my stuff out of my family's shop anyways. Until then a simple extension cord will do the trick.

I appreciate everyone's input, unfortunately patience is not one of my virtues and I will probably get stuck paying the shipping on the returned device, however it's my own fault for trying to find a solution from 260 miles away. My shop time is just limited due to my living situation and I hate wasting time.

Grazi,
Joey


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