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Nothing personal against your mentor, but I still disagree.

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Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Me too. It's utter nonsense to lump all new classical guitar builders into one "novice woodworker" bin!

Dave F.

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Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

Actually Irving Sloans book is the only one I already have that I have been reading. It calls for boiling the sides in troughs and bending them on forms...I thought that was interesting. Also thanks to your experienced guidance ( everyone here who has left comments ) I have found Roy Courtnalls book second hand for U$S 60 and it is on order!! I am excited about getting this book in my hands and studying it out!
I amy go ahead and pick up the Cumpiano book as well from LMI, but I will probably rference the Courtnall book the most regarding building when I actually begin...seems to be the most complete and comprehensive. My wife and I are making a budget now for some of the tools that I am lacking, and also researching some of the cheaper woods here regarding the build. I am going to use some low-grade Englemann for the top and back and sides probably Algarobo ( the mesquite family ) or the Pao Ferro ...I can get it pretty cheap here, about 47 Argentine pesos for a whole set! divide that by 4 and you get the conversion to U$S dollars...so as you can see its pretty cheap!
I will be piecing together some woods for a future project when I feel I have some more experience under my belt to build a guitar thats made with better grade and quality woods...we´ll see in the beginning cheap andsimple...thats what I am after

As for the alergy aspect of some of the woods, I am going to check in on that more. I am a bit alergy prone...especially to dairy and wheat products...regarding airborne stuff we will have to see...but I am going to order some masks and goggles to work with in the shop. My initial focus is going to be constructing a solera and some simple jigs...like a scarf cutting jig for a table saw and also a shooting board...
I am hoping to begin launching out in about August or so...maybe late July ...the materials I ordered by LMI are being brought down by a friend and his wife who are coming to visit us in Argentina...so they wont be coming until late July...meanwhile I can read and continue to ask you guys questions! thanks for all fo your help!!!

Actually the Sloane book is really great, and was my first book on guitar construction, 30 years ago. I didn't build anything then, but I was interested. I must have read that book a dozen times, over the years. The side boiling thing is a little archaic, but some still do it, and it does work. Seems easier just to bend by hand or on a form with a blanket. Then you don't have all that drying time to wait out.

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Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Eric-
Sounds like you are making a good start! Keep us posted as you go, please.
I wouldn't get too excited about a scarf-cutting jig- that's an easy one to do by hand, and clean up with a hand plane.
Something for bending sides should be high on your list. The boiling method is a bit outdated now, I think, though a good soak helps in bending most woods. A heating blanket might be worth investigating if your friend can bring it down to you. (I don't know if you are on 240 v supply?) Anyway, check LMII and JohnHall (BluesCreek Guitars link at the top of this page) for blankets.
The other thing you should do if you don't already have humidity control in your shop is to get that set up before summer arrives.
Sounds like you are on track with wood choices.
re: allergies and dust. If you can work outdoors at all, that is a big help, in addition to masks, etc. (Sounds like you have quite a temperate climate there. )Also, get used to stripping off your work clothes and putting them straight into the laundry after work - keeping dust out of the living area is important.

Cheers
John

I don't know what you want to hear, Filippo, but I've had some pretty nice comments on my first, sound-wise, by some pretty decent guitar players, who are used to playing higher end instruments. Is it as good as my latter attempts? No, but that does not reduce the value of the build to a woodworking exercise. I believe I got a whole lot more than that out of it. The Coffee table in my den was a woodworking exercise.. Did I follow a plan, yes, but I carved braces till I got a sound I was looking for. How did I know? Well, I guess I don't know. I had read enough to know that I wanted a low register musical tone of significant sustain, and an evenness across the lower bout. I carved till I got that. Since, I have learned that I can go a bit lower, but the first was still a significant step in my tonal successes, if I can call them that. Thinning the top of my first, I used all the tips I could get, from folks like Colin, David La Plante,, Shawn, and Joshua French, all of whom were very helpful in my knowing the limits of where I could go. However, I had no hands-on help at all, and when I started I had never sharpened a plane properly or a chisel properly. Yeah, I had rubbed them against a stone, but they weren't sharp. So, when I look at it I suppose I look at my first as an education in classical guitar construction, not woodworking.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

John here just south of Buenos Aires, this is a fairly humid client ( actually they call this area "Las Pampas humidas" or "the humid plains" ) and their can be wild fluctuations in temp in a very short time, due to the Andes Mtns on the west, and the narrowness of the southern cone of south america ( seperating the Atlantic side from the Pacific. This many times brings in alot of wind with weather systems that change rapidly. I have seen 15 degrees or more weather changes in just 3 or 4 hours...so I think the de-humidifier is a good investment....even the winter cold is a "wet cold" as I would call it.



I almost bought the heating blanket...but it would be a real budget buster for me right now. I think with this first guitar I will try the bioling method..and eventually I may make a heating Iron ( father-in-law will help with this. I agree regarding the scarf cutting jig..I think I will just try by hand first..here we are 220v ( the lighting here in Arg is terrible everything is like a dim yellow!!!
John I had a quick question maybe you could answer: Why not build a solera out of a flat piece of lets say Oak, or another solid dense hardwood and leave it at that? is it just that the ply and MDF board is cheaper? Does the lamination of the ply and MDF in the solera keep the board from deforming due to humidity?

My experience (and of many other builders too) is that the more water you add the more cupping and deformation you get. These days I bend easy wood such as Indian rw completely dry. If I left it too thick and feel the need to crank up the heat, I just wipe it with a damp rag from time to time.

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Build log

You have the answer - you want a material that won't 'change shape' with changes in humidity, or over time. So something like plywood, MDF, particle board would be the choices I'd look for. (It doesn't have to be new material. You can usually find scrap particle board furniture, desks, etc 'for free' in Canada/US; I don't know if that's the situation in Argentina. I've made a lot of molds, radius sanding dishes, and the like from scrap.) If absolutely necessary, you could glue up a blank for a solera from a few layers of softwood (or hardwood), but it seems like a lot of unnecessary trouble (and work, if you don't have a thickness planer).

You didn't ask, but I'd recommend a home-made bending iron (pipe and propane torch, or pipe and electric heater, or pipe and heat gun) over the boiling pan idea - easier to make and something you will use for years, even after you have a heating blanket.

Cheers
John

Whatever works well for you, is good, I suppose. Most beginners, especially when hand-bending, tend to take quite a while to bend a side, and there is a danger of getting the side scorched.
No wood will bend 'completely dry'. You are depending on the moisture trapped in the wood to provide the steam to bend the wood, if you don't add extra water.
If you are using very curly wood, minimizing water application is a good idea.
Alain Moisan posted this link to the Godin guitar factory recently.
http://www.laguitare.com/2008/godin_princeville_2.html
In the section where they bend sides, you can notice the wet sides being removed from a water tank before placing in the bending machine. They build tens of thousands of guitars per year, so they must know something.
Many hand builders bend sides 'wet' with good results; others keep 'em dry.

Cheers
John

I thought it is the heat that makes the lignin? (or whatever natural compound glues the wood together) soft and allows it to be bent. When you bend dry I guess most of that 8% water disappears pretty fast In any case I gave up on using too much water when I started to notice it doesn't seem to assist the way I bend at all. I bent my first few sets on a low wattage hair curl iron (!!) and while it did work it was slow indeed. So I was trying to help it with water. The water would steam out and the wood would still not bend faster. It would cup and buckle noticeably more however. Maybe it works when it is combined with more heat. The main drawback of the hair iron was its small diameter. The wider the iron, the wider the heated area, the easier the bend; that's why fox benders work so well. When I bought a real bending iron I was shocked by how well it worked. Btw I make my sides pretty thin, perhaps another reason I don't need much extra water if any.

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Build log

I bend dry for the most part too. I just bent my Cocobolo sides, and only put a spritz of water when I was bending the waist. All the rest was bent dry. Taylor, as I recall bends their sides dry. Remember the automatic bender? Designed to bend dry, IIRC. I got some light scorching, but it scrapes or sands right off. Most woods will bend below 350*.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I did my first 2 Guitars using the Sloane boiling trough. I don't think it's worth the effort of making the forms. The hot pipe is easy to set up and extremely cheap to build. The pipe does take a bit of practice, the egg shaped versions being a little easier to use than a standard sewer pipe.
I had this one cast in solid Aluminium. It is electrically heated but once the element fails I could probably just stick a spirit burner under it. No real need for a thermostat, being solid it retains heat for a long enough period. Does everything from a Fiddle to a Cello - and pretty much everything in between.

I am getting ready to purchase my first set of plans and some material for my first guitar build.
I spoke with one of the sales reps at LMI today, and they told me something a little scary.

I feel pretty confident that the 37 hauser plan and template from LMI is what I am going to start, however upon inquiring he told me that the plans were NOT symmetrical ( in his own words ) but he said "its ok Segovia didnt seem to mind" I thought...I dunno if I wanna a build a guitar thats not symmetrical

he said " dont be shocked if one side is a bit different than the other"

maybe you guys can educate me on this...am i just suffering from a minor case of ignorance? Are guitars supposed to be prfectly symmetrical?
please help me to understand this....I thought it was weird that he told me that

Eric-
I think (from reading) that it's pretty common to find that older guitars were not 'factory-perfect', and this is reflected in the plans if the plans are drawn from the actual instrument. Remember that the plan author (Brune) was producing a plan of the original for study, not just for builders to use, so details are rendered quite accurately.
Just make your own half-template from one side on the plan- it will lead to a symmetrical guitar.
And if you make the back and the soundboard the same size, and use vertical supports for the sides when you are building, the back and soundboard will be the same size.
Or, if you want the 'replica mojo', make it a bit 'off' like the original- the choice is yours.


Cheers
John

LMI has probably had some purchaser complain about the plans or had the asymmetry used as an excuse by somebody when returning the plans......

I think the asymmetry being discussed is on the order of a (very) few mm - not a huge issue in a guitar body.

Cheers
John

Ok sounds great...thanks for the advice..
I guess naturally speaking...I could just flip the template over and trace it out onto the top on both sides.. but being a milimiter or two...no biggie

but thats good just want to make sure as this is all new to me...

I am excited about getting this adventure off of the ground. My father - in - law told me he has PLENTY of scrap wood for me to practice on first ( thats an added plus...so I can get some good practice on as well before I launch into the deep and start cutting the actual wood.

That's the usual way I've seen templates done- you only need a 'full' template for non-symmetrical guitars like cutaways and electrics. I guess the commercial templates have bracing 'positioning' guide marks and other stuff on them as well??
I just use the template for drawing the outline, and then I add info along the centerline like the soundhole center and the position of some of the main transverse braces. Some thin plywood or plastic does the trick, unless you are setting up a mini-factory.
IMO, if you can't make your own template from a plan, you will have a lot of problems building a guitar, so I don't understand the market for 'manufactured' templates. (Just add that to the long list of other things I don't understand!)

Cheers
John

John,

I thought about that as well...I could certainly make my own templates, I have made templates for stuff and built stuff in the past...I just thought it would save some time, not to mention that it does include the bracing layouts inside that you can mark onto the top. I also ordered the 37 Hauser as it seemed to be fairly Torres-ish regarding the design...not to mention its laid out on translucent Mylar....should last a long time right? Obviously I will have to make a template for the head and fingerboard...no problem there...I will make those out of some 1/2 pieces of scrap wood or something


I have decided to allow ( graciously ) my argentine wife to make the selection of the first woods that I am going to use in this first build ( she wants to be somewhat included in this project to an extent ) I told her she was not allowed to select anything like Ziricote or Zebrawood or something super exotic. ( actually I told her to go to the bottom of the list and pick out some of the cheapest stuff she could find . It looks like she is leaning towards the Argentine "Nogal" ( Walnut ) I hope this stuff bends easily....guess we´ll find out

As far as the top...a lower grade Englemenn will be the first

I am also purchasing some simple wood rosettes from LMI for this first gig. By the way COurtnall and Cumplianos book is oin the way as well.

Eric-
It sounds like you are well-started on your project- good choices on the plan and wood as well.

Keep us all posted on your progress!

Cheers
John

Thanks John for the support, I think its great that many luthiers come here to share what they have gleaned from this trade with those such as myself that are launching out...I will def be in touch and I am sure I will have tons of questions and comments.

I have planned this in stages ( budget wise ) rather than buying a ton of tools and supplies all at once, I am going to construct this first guitar in stages. Right now I am reading and studying out mainly the solera, and the neck ( seems to be the initial stages of a build ), rather than just trying to absorb all of it at once...I think I can be more organized and thorough in this aspect. Once I approach the soundboard stage, back and sides etc.. I will begin a more concerted study of those aspects and check regarding tooling material etc for what I need and proceed accordingly. Also once I begin, my wife and I will take photos and share them in this forum. many of the tools I do have will be on loan from my father-in-law ( who is also a huge help )

The plans and template ( not to mention I also purchased some Koa binding and headplates for a future guitar project when I reach that point ) will not be here until sometime in July as a I am having the materials shipped to a friends house in the states who is coming to visit me next month...

Thanks for the pdf´s that you sent with the Hauser thicknesses specs..I will download those into my laptop and check those out