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That's not sound good for me to have these quantities of BRW, without paper, so low priced... I won't take the risk... I'm a wood lover, so I won't encourage a man who possibly sell illegal wood from a specie who is being to disapear... And you know, yhea, i'm a fu***** beautiful wood, who makes awesome guitars, but, for the price, and for respect of nature, I don't see the utility of using it. We can find so many other woods that are almost so amazing, for very lower prices, and that we could find profusely... If I could found one, legal, recycled, or of a three that fell naturally, for a nice price, you can be sure i'll buy it and use it, but otherwise, I'll never blindly run to find some... It's my opinion.

Francis R.

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Francis Richer, Montréal
Les Guitares F&M Guitars

i never understood the finished guitar thing. how is one supposed to accurately distinguish between EIR and Brazilian just like that on the spot. do they have wood experts at the border ? for some reason i doubt it.

Sorry, I meant to say David Nichols. In actuality, Larry is David's turtle.Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

I have wondered about the customs people, too. Maybe they have wood-sniffing dogs. One bark for EIRW, two for BRW, three for let me out or I will pee on your foot.

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It's not the miles ahead, it's the stone in your shoe


In Markham,Virginia

What would a guitar with BRW fretboard or bridge on it be subjected to at the border? Would it not also be in violation of cities? If so that would include alot of guitars, would it not?

I bought 2 sets of classical sized BRW from the guy about 5-6 years ago and was pleasantly surprised at how nice they were. They were a little wet and the backs warped slightly afterwards - easily fixable though.

With shipping the total for both was under $200.00. They didn't come with papers and when I asked about that, he quit communication. I remember the auction listings saying shipping from the US but the package came from Brazil. Other than the lack of papers and the very real threat of losing the wood permanently to customs, it isn't a bad deal for builders.

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John Lewis
Wannabe builder owned by 2 crazy dachshunds

They can and do confiscate guitars with BRW on them at border crossings. Doesn't matter if it's B&S, FBs, bindings, or whatever. It happens.

My own ethical sensibilities would not allow me to buy BRW from a dubious source (I mean dubious in terms of legality, not dubious as to whether it's actually BRW or not). For that matter, there are so many great woods to use in guitar making, I would only use BRW at all if a customer absolutely insisted on it - and I would make a real effort to talk them out of it and into one of the many other great rosewoods, or ziricote, or something else. I don't see BRW as any kind of holy grail at all. It's just another wood - and most of what's available is such poor quality.

Such blasphemy!

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Magic drawings!

Just hold the paper up in the moonlight during the season that the drawings were made. The moonlight will reveal special markings only those "in the know" are privy to.

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"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

I'm pretty sure "magic drawings" is a reference to the wood's figure. I too bought some sets from this guy three or four years ago. Really dark stuff with some sapwood. Supposedly cut from salvaged beams. Like John L., I asked about the paperwork and he assured me he'd send it. I'm still waiting for it. The wood's nice enough but I won't go there again.

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Jim Womack

"Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for. "
Will Rogers

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that is is illegal to export/import or buy Brazilian rosewood without paperwork. If so, it is amazing to me that so many are willing to incriminate themselves on this public forum.

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Randy Muth
RS Muth Guitars Website
RS Muth Guitars Blog
Facebook Fan Page

It's illegal to cut the wood. It's legal to sell of buy them if you can proove that is recycled wood (from furnitures, decorative objects, other instruments, etc) or that is wood that been cut before the entrace of the Law, or that is a one who fell naturally and been taken legally...

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Francis Richer, Montréal
Les Guitares F&M Guitars

I believe the ebay listing clearly states the wood will ship from within USA. If that is the case and the buyer is located within USA, then how could they be incriminating themselves if a parcel then arrives from Brazil? The buyer has no control whatsoever over misrepresentation by the seller and there are no restriction on domestic movement of BRW. On the other hand, if the buyer was to be completely aware the listing was in fact shonky and understood the wood was to be shipped direct from Brazil but decided to go ahead with the purchase anyhow, well they may get away with it from a legal perspective, but surely the spirit of Foota, or what ever else you may choose to call it, would strike them down with great vengeance for their moral indiscretion.....these things always seem to have a way of coming back to bite you on the ass sooner or later.

Cheers

Kim

Thanks for correcting me, I wasn't aware that it was being shipped from within the USA. Although, it still seems a bit shady to me.

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Randy Muth
RS Muth Guitars Website
RS Muth Guitars Blog
Facebook Fan Page

The listing says that it is being shipped from within the US, but it isn't. The listing also says that it can be shipped world wide, which isn't supposed to be done without the proper paperwork. Bottom line is that while you may get real Brazilian rosewood, it doesn't appear to be legal.

Well, it sounds like some of us now have the burden of knowing that the stuff is not legit and should stay!!! Shonky indeed!

What you need to do is look at this auction for a little chuckle: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=200405414631&Category=47067&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26its%3DI%26otn%3D2 Quartersawn?!?

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Don't confront me with my failures--I have not forgotten them.

I would like to see a copy of the paperwork that any builder has received with a set of Brazilian
Rosewood from any vendor in the United States. Every vendor that I've dealt with has assured me
that their wood was CITES compliant and that paperwork was available when I contacted them to
purchase sets. Most have even said that the paperwork would accompany the wood when it was
shipped, but I've never received a single set of papers....ever.....from anyone.....and these are the
vendors that all of the small builders in the country are using to get their Brazilian Rosewood.

We can only go by the word that is given by the vendor and continue to have hope that they
will forward those papers of documentation with the wood when they ship it to us. I never buy a
set of wood from any vendor outside of the States and usually have been able to get sets that
are old and have been around for a long time......and pay dearly for them.

I refused to buy any Brazilian Rosewood for more than ten years as I watched my peers in the
industry amass huge stockpiles of the stuff from all manner of sources. The demand by a number
of my customers for good sets of it to be used in their guitars got great enough for me to start
searching for the most reputable sources for the material and I've been careful about who I do
and do not buy from. I'm also a guitar builder...not a wood broker....so I refuse to charge the
huge and ridiculous upcharges for the wood that many builders have become known for.

I've been in one wood stockroom where there are literally thousands of sets of Brazilian Rosewood
on pallets lined up. The charge for the sets as they're used in guitars is astronomical by any standard
and pushes the cost of those guitars into the realm where only the most wealthy players can afford
them. I've heard so many stories about beams and boards being recovered and cut into back and side
sets and fingerboards, bridges and head veneers for guitar building.

I understand wanting to capitalize on the rarity of the wood by charging exorbitant prices to a
degree. It comes down to a mentality that stops at "I'm gonna get it while I can." and has just never
sat right with me as I offer estimates and price quotes to my potential customers. I do, of course,
have to charge something for my time needed to search for and procure the wood, but try my best
to keep the pricing fair and reasonable for my customers.


Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

Ivory? No way! Unless of course you insist...hey, don't look at me, I didn't kill the elephant....

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It's not the miles ahead, it's the stone in your shoe


In Markham,Virginia

he he he....bark....wood...get it?

If you're interested, you can actually access the CITES wood identification guide online:

http://www.cws-scf.ec.gc.ca/enforce/pdf/wood/Cites_Wood_Guide.pdf

This may (or may not) help you in determining whether you received the wood you actually ordered

Christian

Jon,
You're on a whole different boat when talking about ivory since there are, in fact, lots of legit
pieces of Brazilian Rosewood turning up from recovery sites and other unlikely places. I never buy
ivory pieces online or from vendors who can't prove its origin. I've done a good number of projects
with ivory vines and other inlays, ivory bridges fashioned from single pieces of elephant ivory and
all sorts of other details and options made from it and have always been able to buy the ivory from
auction houses and antique vendors who can verify that the pieces that I cut from are old and mostly
heirloom pieces that were made preban.

I've bought ivory plates, cups, thimbles and other things made from it, but the most interesting
was a huge rosary bead set with all of the beads measuring over 1 /2" in diameter, the medallion in
conter measuring 8 inches and a full 1 1/4" thick and a massive cross measuring 1 1/2" across the
beams which were 14 inches and 8 inches long. It ended up after I'd dismantled it for the ivory that
there was over 20 ounces of 24k gold in the large chain that connected it all. I got it in a box of things
at a local auction house for a total of $15.00. It was all found in an attic of a house that had been
unoccupied for more than 50 years. The rosary set may have been worth many times more as an
antique to the right person, but it served me well in being able to offer great inlays to people while
being perfectly legal and conscientious.

I'm yet to see much documentation on any Brazilian Rosewood and always try to steer buyers toward
one of the very nice alternatives to it that offer great tone. I have gotten it with the sets that i've gotten
from a vendor that is new to me recently, though.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

I don't know if this is true, but I thought these links are fitting in this thread
http://blogs.nashvillescene.com/nashvillecream/2009/11/gibson_guitars_raided_by_fbi_f.php
http://www.newschannel5.com/Global/story.asp?S=11523068

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

Woody,
Thanks for those links. Very interesting stuff. I'd like to hear Gibson's side of the story, though.
I wonder if the allegations are true or if the dime that was dropped was just to cause them some
trouble....You never know in today's world, but either could be the truth.

When I first caught wind of the sources for Madagascar Rosewood starting to dry up because of
the mentioned possibility of it becoming a protected wood years ago, I did stockpile a stash of more
than 74 fine sets of it. It's still available from most of the vendors, but a few have refused to continue
selling it just to avoid any trouble that could arise in the event of a lack of paperwork or integrity on
the loggers and vendors' parts.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

Right on the quarter!

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

What! lol! How can a man sell somthing, saying it's quartsawn.... AND PUT A BIG CLOSE-UP PICTURE OF THIS SH*T!? Ahah, funny!

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Francis Richer, Montréal
Les Guitares F&M Guitars

WOW ! Gibson raided for illegal wood.

-jd

Wood and guitars were impounded, but charges so far have not been placed. Gibson says it sits on the Rainforest Alliance Council, and claims to have done nothing wrong. I wonder if Taylor and the other big makers are sweating a bit at this point. Some lucky law firm guaranteed to have several years of business defending this one.
Hopefully the Fish and Wildlife service will keep it stickered.........

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It's not the miles ahead, it's the stone in your shoe


In Markham,Virginia