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MrPbody, It sounds like we are talking about different things then.

If you leave a file mark in an inconspicuous location, that is one thing but if you route the ledge and the binding is too thin in a few spots and don't go back to fix the issue it seems lazy to me. The same goes for glue on the inside of the guitar. Sure, we all know that guitars are wood, metal and glue but not making clean glue joints seems lazy to me. If you have a sag in the finish and don't take the time to let it cure, sand, and go over it again, it seems lazy to me.

Of course, there could be a total turd of a guitar that sings like an angel (I had a 1954 00-17 that was that way) but it is hard for me to believe that great sound was intentional when the maker could not even spend time making sure the guitar looked good (and NO, I don't mean bling).

Either way, the end result is a guitar that plays music right? To me, a buyer is foolish if he spends his money on a sloppily built guitar just because it is "hand made" just the way I think the buyer is foolish who spends $15,000 on a guitar as an investment that he won't play. Ideally, it comes down to the sound of the guitar and even that is hardly quantifiable.

So I guess I'll just do my best to rise above the rest and have fun doing this.

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Don't confront me with my failures--I have not forgotten them.

Yes we are talking about two different things. I think there is room however for a handmade look for a guitar. Kind of like the Rat Rod verses Billet Queen difference in the hot rod world.

I agree with you that some of the workmanship I have seen over the years is lacking in some Luthier instruments as you have described. My big beef is that a lot of them sound terrible which is the biggest sin.

Everyone is free to build as they wish. Personally I don't buy it.

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Pete you may not but 250 other people have. It is an Art Brut kind of thing.

Here is a guitar I built for a famous musician. Lots of tool marks. We modeled it after an early Fiji war club (late 18th/Early 19th Century) in my art collection that was made with stone tools. You can't see it too well in this photo but it looks like it was made by a cave man and that was the idea. Alloy pickguard made from AL from a WWII fighter plane. Very Cargo Cult.

Wow. I wasn't expecting that.

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Don't confront me with my failures--I have not forgotten them.

Interesting thread.

Didn't Bryan Kimsey say on his website that he likes to leave a few file marks on a hand shaped bone nut so folks will know it was hand shaped?

It seems much of this comes down to personal taste. I think there are buyers that like the "handbuilt" look as opposed to the "factory" look. I can't say one is better than the other.....but I personally want to do the best I can in all catagories. I'm on my first so I'm far away from making these type decisions.

For my taste, I'm all about the sound.....and not so much into looks. Sound and playability are the highest on my list....next is longevity, with the looks a distant fourth. I love the old worn looking Martins.....and love that sound too! (but often don't like the playability) Tone does it for me.

Just for arguments sake, how many will build a guitar with fit and finish better than a Taylor? Yours may play as well, but if it doesn't sound better, why would a customer pay more for your guitar? The only thing I can think of is because it's hand-built. Within reason, what's wrong with it looking hand-built as opposed to looking factory built?

The biggest surprise in this post is the line being blurred between the sound, or tone, of a guitar and the way a guitar sounds when an individual is playing it. An individual player may make the guitar sound "bad"......but they can't make it sound "better".......they can only bring out what is already there. Now a certain tone may fit an individual's style or may sound better on a certain song......but the guitar has a particular tone or sound whether the notes or muffled and deadened by the player or not. What am I missing? If you want to compare appples to apples, have the same player play two guitars for comparison. Some of the posts almost make it seem like guitars can't be compared due to a player's influence on the sound? This surprises me.

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

I can't resist this one. Perfection is a curse. I built furniture for more than 25 years, and I was always a perfectionist. I was trying to live up to my fathers standards. But he was a genius with wood. No matter how hard I tried, I never lived up to his standards. I made mistakes, but no one else could find them. But I knew where every single one of them was.
Now I am building guitars. I traveled across the country to learn the craft from a master. I took a one week course in guitar building. I built (with his help) a very nice 000 guitar in four days. The finish isn't much, and there is no binding, but the guitar plays and sounds better than I would ever have expected. I am in the process of building three 000's for my grandkids. I will not except anything less than "near perfect". If I was building to sell, I would go bankrupt. Time is money, and when you are doing it for a living, you have to move quickly. The point is, if you are an amateur, you should not be in this business. Who is going to pay five or ten thousand dollars for a guitar made by an unknown? It doesn't make sense. I would hope most of the amateurs on this forum are doing it for fun. I own a Martin HD-28B made in 1986 that sounds terrific. But I know for a fact that I can build a guitar to sound just as good. That is a cool thing. But I cannot believe that anyone that builds a guitar by hand would let it go out the door with obvious flaws. If that happens, then I would avoid that builders products at all cost's. Who knows what else he did wrong. The seams could come loose a few years down the road. Quality is the only thing you have complete control of. Sound is a different matter.

Building guitars is an art and every one needs to speak to their niche market and the players in their market. I make Rock and Roll Guitars. My customers want something weird and flashy. They want something with soul and quirks. The whole market is not Uber craftsmanship and Zoot woods. I am not knocking it I can appreciate it and if that is the market you are going for go for it. The nice thing is that musicians can now get the kind of guitar they need for the kind of music they play. 20 years ago when I started there was very little choice now there is more.

I guess I see a couple very important things here...

1. Price point is what it is.... and if your goal is a cosmetically "perfect" $1,000 guitar... you will *Surely* give up something else for it! There is no escape from this.. Compare a $1,000 Taylor or Martin against their $4,000 models....

The "Old Masters" "Student" and "Economy" model guitars were never built to the same standards of perfection and beauty as their "Showpiece" guitars... though they Played and Sounded like a Masters guitar. Why should it be considered "Shoddy" or some sort of "Insult to Lutherie" today?

Sure... This lower level of perfection commands far less price.... but it is also an extremely fast build -- All that Fine finish and inlay work takes an immense amount of time -- possibly 3-10x the time to build and finish a Plain Jane Boring guitar.. so there must be a hefty cost penalty for it!

2. There are times we choose function over form. Look at Krenov and his famous hand planes. They look like a total wreck made by a kid.... but function? They run hour after hour and your hands don't get cramped or get blisters.... Why? The funny shape and raw wood and rough cut are made for the shape of the human hand and they don't slip around as you work. A beautifully finished square block of Iron with rosewood handles looks great but makes your arms sore and gives you blisters on your hands.....

Now... In all honesty... Work must be judged objectively for what it is...
These arguments are a Two Edged Sword -- They swings both ways....

We should not be foolish enough to believe the delusion that a beginners "$300 market" or an Amateur's "$1,000 market" guitar will stand Toe to Toe with a Masters $20,000 model... It's the Market that determines what our guitars are worth.... Not us!

and we must carefully judge the work of those who claim "Function over form" -- do they reach their goal of everything subordinated to true excellence of function... or is it merely an excuse for a poorly done job?

Thanks

John

Just a small observation of prices !!! An example, my friend is a artist "make paintings" so first he sold his paintings for 1-300 USD . he had a real hard time to sell them, so then he added a 0 = "3000 USD" and he sold them all in a week !!. In here, this thread, we seem to look at prices as a competition to our own guitars price ! .
So true John !.
If an unknown builder has a real talent for building guitars, and all those who play them love them, then if he then also put a good price for it, then it will probably get sold.
Bourgeois makes a lot of guitars every month, his name is on the guitar, meaning, he has workt on the guitar ! but not made the whole guitar himself,! the other 10 guys in his shop has ! people Unknown to the buyer ! so If a customer can get a handmade guitar that looks great, plays great and feels great, and also knows just 1 person has dedicated all his talent to this one guitar, then he might just buy that guitar instead of the bourgeois, even if he´s an unknown - and yes you can get a great handmade guitar for 1-2000 usd. if your lucky and its the talanted builders first 5 guitars.

OR maby I am just writing this to fell better myself. hahahaha
ps- didn´t Eric Clapton buy a guitar from an unknown builder "atleast to him unknown" after playing it in a studio and loving the sound. paid like 100 000 USD just to get it, if I recall right.
I think we are thinking to much in the terms of builder vs builder, instead of customer vs guitar.

Lars.

Think its all a matter of expectations... If a new makers sells early guitars that sound great but have some cosmetic flaws, but as a result are REALISTICALLY priced, I see no problem. As that maker improves, and the guitars become btter and the flaws dissappear, they can rightly command a better price... that seems fair. If someone is happy building at the lower price points but this means a compromise in time spent....then thats where the debate is as at this price point you can get some darn good factory instruments.. but I dont think its right to say we should ALL hae the same ambition to end up as master craftsman able to demand $20,000 for an instrument - there are not enough customers for a start!

Its where things blur between Art/Craft and business - ifthere is a market for a 1500 dollar hand made, built toa price point rather than quality then it will be filled and someone will amke good buissness - should they be ridiculed because they build to a price point and dont amybe have the same desire to build the $20,000 level one day?

Maybe the biggest irony is that of repytation and thus desirability - thankfully with guitars reputation is ultimately deserved, but of couse it means that one day, those early not great instruments end up being worth a whole lot more as teh early instruments of a now famous builder - glue and construction faults and all..

(Please remember that I, too, am a hobbyist and very much an amateur while reading my mindless ramblings.)

Perfection, craftsmanship and quality are all, in my opinion, based on perspective, experience and personal taste/preference.

A non guitar example: My truck is a 2000 Nissan Xterra. Good looking rig (well, when it was new anyway ), cost wasn't too bad and it was very capable right off the showroom floor. Was it perfect in every detail? Nope, but it does what I want it to do and does it well. My wife, on the other hand, has a newer BMW...You have to look REALLY hard to see any defects or imperfections in a new one of those. Is it very good at what it does? Yep...a dream to drive.

The point is that yes, you get what you pay for and sometimes, for some folks, function can win over form. If a car is perfectly suited to what you want to do, and you are not as interested in fancy wood trim or automatic wipers, then you will buy what you want. If you are willing to shell out the cash for perfection or higher quality then you will get what you want. If you don't care about looks at all, and just want something for playing in the mud, you will spend very little for a very functional but extremely ugly monster...and get what you want. See the pattern?

Do I want to make a perfect guitar, that sounds superb to even the most critical ear? Hell Yeah!!! Am I willing to kill my self mentally and emotionally by expecting to be able to do one right now, or even soon? Hah! Not even. That is why some of my instruments have issues and imperfections...rough finish, binding that could use a re-do, etc. My friends and family appreciate what I do, and how they sound, a couple have even been sold...for very little but enough to start another. I think that I am happy with where I am but very interested in doing better.

Anyway...I'll shush now.

Well stated Mateo!
There is room for a broad range of "hand-built" guitars in a range of prices as an alternative to the factory product. It just depends on your priorities and wallet.

Joe

Mateo,
You're in exactly the same place as most of us builders who have been doing this
full time for decades. Pretty happy that we're doing as well as we are, but always
pushing to do a little better next time.

As long as that desire is intact, the guitars that show up at shows like Healdsburg
and Montreal will be better every time.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

For a different perspective on woodworking may I suggest reading some books by James Krenov. A Cabinetmakers Notebook. •. With Wakened Hands. •. The Fine Art of Cabinetmaking. •. Worker in Wood. •. The Impractical Cabinetmaker ...
I discovered his books some 25 or so years ago and found them to really change my perspective on working with wood.
No they are not about guitarmaking but focus on cabinetmaking, tools, etc. In particular A Cabinetmakers Notebook and
The Fine Art of Cabinetmaking were very inspirational to me. I think what we build be it instruments or a piece of furniture and how we build it can be summed up in one word. PRIDE

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Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

I find it somewhat ironic that most use "golden era" guitars as a standard to judge today's instruments by. However, the fit and finish would look almost amateur compared to most modern guitars that people complain, "they don't build 'em like they used to."

I recently played a beautiful Flamenco Nigra (German/Brazilian) by German Vazquez Rubio, and the trebles better than you can imagine. (It made me want to fight a bull) As sweet as it was to my ears, it was also quite beautiful visually. But it was hardly perfect, and you can see evidence of hand carving on the inside heel, and pencil marks on the inside. Check out the mini-documentary on his website, and you'll see that he's a great craftsman, and he can do things with his traditional Mexican luthier knife that most would need a shop full of jigs to accomplish. Manuel Velazquez says he prefers the measurements of his fingers to machinist calipers. If you attempt to replicate his soundboard measurements, you can't just send it through the sander, but need to use planes and scrapers, as uniform dimensions are not his goal. In fact, he takes a somewhat cavalier attitude towards finishing as he quotes Santos Hernandez as saying that the finish just gets banged up quickly anyway. Nobody would ever accuse great builders of sloppiness, just because they use a pencil or have visible bending marks on the sides. In my view, you have to be able to build like Velazquez to get to the point that people don't care as much about fit/finish.

Some of these "old world" methods produce tonal qualities that we all love, but they didn't prioritize aesthetic perfection as much as most "new world" customers. Hand work can be the best way to achieve old world sound, but not the best for new world aesthetic perfection.

As Al said, there's a big difference between sloppy, and handcrafted. And Peter is also right in saying that we don't have to choose between the 2, as if it's not possible to look for better ways to make every aspect the best we can. I also refuse to believe that someone intentionally makes something look worse so they can make it look more attractive to certain buyers. I don't know who these buyers are who are so frustrated that all the good sounding guitars are too good looking.

As for the $1000 handmade guitar, I wouldn't feel comfortable charging what 25 yr+ career builder would, but even a new builder's instrument that's a 6 out of 10 can compete with laminate imports, and even most lower-end domestic solid woods.

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https://www.facebook.com/lee.nunes.35

Total sterotypical musings I know but why not - a lighter hearted look at this wonderful world

Guitar building types - Draft 1

The Obsessive genius
Totally focussed and driven in everything they do - for whom there is simply no satisfaction unless everything is perfect and its that goal that is the ultimate obsession.. fair enough, as combine that approach with talent and you have genius - and in guitar making terms a likely legend... known to burn completed Rio Instruments because there is a slight mistmatch in the bookmatching under finish... tend to cackle as they watch the flames - can be scary!

The Craftsman
Those who aspire to one day be able to produce master grade instruments but have a more measured approach, understanding that as they start out its a long journey and have the patience and maturity to see it through with hard work and dedication to the craft - Apprentice, journeyman, master - these are those that see mistakes as learnings - some will put it right others might leave it as a reminder of their journey. These guys inevitably end up building first class instruments. Just dont ask them to show you their wood stash - it will take many hours as they painstakingly tell you the story of the tree, the log, the lumberjack, the history of the house/furniture it first produced, how it became recycled and the story of its discovery in a skip (dumpster), how how much it cost to be resawn, how only one set was salvageable, but boy will it make a stunning instrument - usually nice guys though


The New kid on the block
We all hate them - cocky - smart, young and talented and after 5 instruments they have designed their own bracing, experimented with every part and are producing stunning instruments that are quickly getting a reputation - we want to find fault in workmanship but cant (CNC surely helps there ) - fault in the tone but cant and so we criticise their idiosyncratic styling or ...or... ... 'its not traditional is it'


The Geek (self confessed and silent types)
The master of science - what they dont know about densities, molecular structure, deflection measurments, audio analysis of tap tone wavelengths, mathematical formula, materials science, acoustic engineering is obviously not worth knowing - but they will read up on it anyway - Often build stunning instruments with great tone - but dont get out much!

The Master in his own mind
The first to criticise, comment and tell you what is wrong with your instrument - will tell you that when he built his 1st, it was already magnificent, and now having built 7 guitars he has all the knowledge he will ever need to rewrite the history of guitar building - strangely no one has actually ever seen or played one of their instruments - not to be confused with 'the new kid on the block' type who is equally as irritating but can actually back it up...

The mad amateur (possibly most of us)
Builds 1 - not a disaster - but is hooked... uses the kids college fund to buy tools and Zoot ( on the logic that that stack of old growth Rio will be worth 10 x as much by the time the kids need the cash and no nasty banker will have a chance to spend his money on big bonuses and then lose it all) desperately would love to give up the day job working for that oppresive corporate - hates wearing that suit to work everyday, but hey the mortgage needs paying and tool sare expensive - will end up owning more wood for more guitars that he could ever build in 20 lifetimes - wife is in effect a 'guitar widow' on weekends

The 'I dont fall into any of the above' ... builder



Yes you do

When I talk to a potential client about a commission I tell them that I'm a hobby builder and that if they want a CNC aestheticly perfect instrument to go somewhere else, I can't do it.

Sorry, but it's the truth.

I've had repeat orders so I must be doing SOMETHING right.......

but perfection is in the eye of the beholder

when I first saw my mate Paddy's 1970s Lowden Jumbo sporting it's #00001 label I thought it was gorgeous.

then a couple of years later Paddy enroled on the guitar building course that I was finishing off.

the tutor (Sam Irwin) had worked for Lowden in the very early days and asked Paddy to bring the guitar in.

He then spent 20 minutes pointing out all the flaws!!

(it's atill a gorgeous guitar BTW, I just know that it in't perfect now!!)

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My soundclick xx luthier blog xx luthier soundclick

For Frank's catagorization---


Thanks,
Joe

Thank you Frank for adding some humour to this infinity thread.

Also, I would like to add my name to the "Mad Amateur" ranks as your definition is spot on in my case!

Ray

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Guitar Building = Continuous Improvement Process

All through this thread I've been But I got a good chuckle from Frank's post. Looks like I fall in the mad amateur category .

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Thanks...from a typical mad amateur - although the good lady does not know it yet!

Yes, the "mad amateur" is a goodly proportion of the builders, but don't let anyone, least of all the ones on the "upper end" of the scale, tell you not to sell your instruments, if that is what you want to do.

You should sell the first guitar that is complete, I don't care if you get 10 bucks for it, that's 10 bucks toward the next one. Stand behind the first one, if the buyer has a problem, fix it, if you can't fix it, give him his 10 bucks back.
Get 20 bucks for the next, and so on.

I got $50 for my second guitar, 30 years ago. I recently talked to the guy I sold it to, he's still playing it, says "I like how it's all wierd".

It really isn't about the money, it is about the working, and the reward. Any complete work is worth a reward.

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https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008907949110

Frank! That is so great. I really enjoyed reading that. A little less seriousness is exactly what this thread needed!

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.