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I think the problem with formaldehyde would be reversibility.

Cheers

Kim

Excellent point. I can't say I have any clue if urea formaldehyde adhesives are reversible or not.

I don't understand the water issue. If I can't get ink to penetrate super thin wood veneer (yet), they why is glue, which is thicker, going to "penetrate" the neckwood, and a hardwood like Ebony or oily rosewood?

Not saying it hasnt happened, but I wonder how this happens. Kind of a contradiction here.

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Here is what a Parlor Guitar is for!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEa8PkjO6_I

I have some ideas for experiments. How about putting some fret boards and necks that are perfectly flat together with no adhesive. Clamp and leave for a few days. Take a part and check for flatness. Or you could glue them with non- water based contact cement. The idea being that the cement would seal the wood on the inside of the joint but allow the parts to move . I am thinking that just having to two pieces together would cause some movement. Just like leaving a piece of wood on your bench and coming back the next day and it has moved. ( we all know why)
Or what about gluing a fret board to some kraft paper. Clamping it up nice and flat and looking at it a day or two later. Do the same with a neck blank. The idea here being you would introduce moisture, replacate a thin glue line and the paper would have any strength to influence what the wood does. Check out what happens. How about taking a neck blank that has been machined flat and square and has been sitting around for a week or two, then joint off 1/8" from one side and watch what happens over the next few days. I will admit that some of my proposels are retorical but I haven't done all of these things but it would be interesting to check out.
Link

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

About the Uni-Bond. I love Uni-Bond, great stuff. It would be a fantastic glue for guitar work except for one little problem. Not really reversible. You could reverse it with a crow bar but I don't think you would like that.

I can see it for head stock veneers, maybe linnings, end grafts. Anything you aren't likely to take apart or the method of removal is to cut it out. For laminated sides it would be ideal.
Link

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

I've got a neck blank in my shop that I made up a little over two years ago for a Black Cherry OM body I built nearly 3 years ago. I've done nothing further to either since then, they've just been sitting in my shop in a stable environment for all that time. The heel block pieces are all laminated to it and the headstock is attached via a scarf joint. I seem to pick it up and look at it several times a week and think "I need to finish this"! I machined it to perfection when I made it. Over two years time has passed and it is still perfectly straight. BTW it's Honduran Mahogany (HM) and the heel block is built up of laminated HM and Osage Orange (that's Hedge to those of you in NE Kansas farm country ) I think I will joint off 1/8" on one side as you've suggested, just to see what happens. I suspect absolutely nothing since the HM I used was 30 years old and the Hedge was 10 years old. The initial glue ups changed nothing (Titebond BTW) and nothing has changed for two years. I'll let you know the results in a few days.

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

We're not talking about the glue itself being absorbed into the wood, just the water. I don't think the water initially penetrates very deeply; I suspect it's just the fibers right at the surface that are absorbing most of the water. Over time, though, that water will migrate through the wood as it works its way back out until EMC is re-established.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

There seems to be some very knowledgeable and well respected luthiers that use epoxy and some that don't. I've given it some thought but I've not had a problem with warped necks, so at least for now, it seems to be a solution to a problem I don't have. Should I start having necks warp, I may consider a change, but for now, I'm think that I will stay with the LMI white...no need to mix it up, weigh it to make sure I get the right proportion, and I think, easier clean up.

I am glad that others have tried epoxy and that it works well for them. It’s another option for building, and having options is a good thing. I'ts good to know that some have actually removed epoxied fret boards with no more problems than those glued with HG, TB, or LMI, since I've had this mental picture of needing to chisel an epoxied fret board off. I'm glad that's not the case, should I go the epoxy route later.

While I don't have anything to add that hasn't already been said, this was a great post......very informational. Thanks for starting the topic Link.

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

+1 on that. Great stuff. I'm on the fence over this issue and really appreciate the discussion.

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George :-)

Something I've been wondering about, is if the difference could be in whether or not the guitars are built in a high humidity region, or a mid to low humidity region. I've been using the West Systems for the fingerboard because I learned it from Charles Fox who as many of you know has been building guitars for 40+ years. That said however, I didn't ask him the reason he switched to epoxy, or how long ago he switched. I think I'll shoot him an email to see if I can get his input on it. Like Link, I've not used nor have I ever considered using epoxy in a fine furniture build. Well, I take that back, I have considered it for filling the voids in some knots on a knotty Alder build, but ultimately I didn't. Link this is an excellent subject and I as well as many others I'm sure appreciate you bringing it up.

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

Reguardless of adhesive or the weather outside I believe you really need to control the humidity when building a guitar.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

Woody thanks! That goes without question I simply forgot to mention it. This is something I'm personally aware of as a professional fine furniture builder and I just take that knowledge for granted. I failed to add it in my post not taking into consideration others who may not have that experience.

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

As per Link's suggestion and my promise above, I wanted to post the results of planing 1/8" off one side of a neck blank I've had sitting for a couple of years.

On May 1 I planed one side off and let the neck sit in the same area I've stored it for the past two years, this morning I checked the surface with a straight edge (diagonally, cross grain, and along the grain) just as I did before making the cut. There was so little movement that a .001 feeler would not slide beneath at any point. I know this is really non important since this page had already moved out of the realm of discussion but I just wanted to post results since I gave my word that I would for any who might care. And if no one cares, that's OK too, I just like to maintain the practice of being a man of my word.

Along this subject line the new post entitled "Speaking of Somogyi" is discussing the use of epoxy and CA and the hazards thereof. Thanks to Link and walnut47 for bringing these subjects up. Even one as safety conscious as I am, there is always the danger of growing complacent over time when using hazardous products. I for one am being persuaded to abandon Epoxy all together and potentially CA.

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

Yeah, me too, probably. Interestingly, in the same Big Red Book is an article on adhesives by Lawrence D. Brown, in which he states that gluing on fretboards is the one place where he thinks it makes sense to use liguid hide glue - because of the longer open time and it doesn't need to be a super strong joint.
Walter

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Walter Lay
"It's taken me so long, but now that I know
I can see. All that I do or say, is all I ever will be"
- Billy Joe Shaver