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The important factor in water bath temperature versus glue bottle temperature is whether your glue bottle has a closed lid or is an open jar. I tried the Frank Ford technique of using an open cup of glue clipped to the side of the water bath. I found that the glue was 10 to 15 degrees F cooler than the water. I am sure that this shortened my open time when using the glue. Since switching to closed cap glue bottles, this temperature difference is no longer a concern.

Good point, Barry...I hadn't considered the open container. When I used to use the open container clipped to the waterbath, I noticed that after a period of time, the glue formed a skin over the top...thus making it a closed cup and probably raising the temp of the liquefied glue. Since going to the poly bottles years ago, I now rarely use a brush...and if I need to brush it on, it's just a simple effort to unscrew the cap and dip the brush.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Sorry to be against the grain, but while hhg might seem easy once you get enough experience with it, it is not as easy as white or fish glue and should not be taken lightly especially since people are advised to try it on critical braces!

For some reason I can't seem to be able to get a good bond between spruce pieces I just teared opened yet another piece which was glued with precisely 145 deg hot glue, from pot to the wood and clamped in less than 10 seconds total time, and after 3 hours of clamping it easily open apart at the glue line with minimal wood tear. On the other hand Spanish cedar samples glued up a lot better. I also offset glued 2 parquet tiles of oak, joint surface about 1.5 x1.5 inches, and after several heavy hammer blows it staid in 1 piece while the edges of the wood were going to splinters...

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Build log

Laurent...I believe most builders use the 192 High Clarity HHG sold by LMI. SM sells the Behlen stuff which is 230 or higher. The only issue is the shorter working time for the Behlen glue as far as I know, but if it works for you I wouldn't change a thing.

I'm also under the impression that all HHG comes from a single manufacturer (Milligan & Higgins) which only sell in 50 lb minimums.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

The only place a bottle has not been that great for me is gluing bridges. I like to use a brush there. I usually clip a cup to the side of my water bath and when ready fill it from the bottle and go right ahead and glue the bridge. What technique do you guys use to glue a bridge with just the bottle?
TJK

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I'm still green to this hide glue, and am using it to build my left overs uke, and in my rig which it a baby bottle warmer and using the powdered hide glue I can find in the uk have found that my rig needs to be at 150 f to keep the glue at 140 f and I've had it on for a couple of hours today and measured the two initially then about 45 minutes later, but lets face it guys I think we're being far too anal about the whole issue they didn't have digital thermometers or bother to measure it years ago. I've read in a couple of places when mixing in a jam jar to cover the glue in twice it's depth in water, and it I follow frank ford site correctly we can use unflavoured gelatin from the supermarket mix it at 3:1 and heat it to 150f an similar tip in stewmacs trade secrets suggests heating to 150f too so there must be a small tolerance in over heating.

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

I once read a page on hide glue, and on the loss of strength, unfortunately I can't recall the exact figures, the quote was something like a loss of 10% after 1 hour of heating at 170 deg.

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Build log

JJ--

I believe that to be true for most hide glues in North America. Tenax is a good supplier in Europe (Czech Republic). There are some specialty glues for the archival trade that may not come from Milligan and Higgins, but the essence, I believe, is to just find some HHG at a decent price, don't obsess too much over it (who the supplier is, etc) and just go about using it. To me the difficult part is just getting quick enough in clamping to use it successfully. Its not quite as easy as using glue out of a bottle, but its not all that difficult.

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Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC

I've squeezed it onto a heated bridge and brushed it out. I heat the bridge in a microwave for 20 seconds and heat the top with a hair dryer. I've also just squeezed it out onto the heated top and placed the bridge in the puddle. I hold it in place, press and wiggle the warm bridge until I see squeeze out...then pin it and clamp it.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I'm new to HHG and just used it (Behlens) to join and brace the top on my first acoustic. The box has only been together about a month so no telling if it will last but I think it will. I've been mixing mine then putting it in the refrigerator overnight to dissolve before I use it. I use it for about a week heating it up 5 or 6 times before I do another batch. I have no clue if this is good or not but sounds ok based on what everyone else is saying.

I use a 1 oz poly bottle with a stainless bolt in it to make it float upright in a Rival 'Little Dipper' crock pot. Some folks have reported that some of those 'Little Dipper' pots do not hold the correct temperature but I keep a thermometer in mine and it sits right at 140F with the lid off. When I first tried the HHG I did some test joints on various materials (spruce, fir, oak, and walnut IIRC) and when I pulled them apart the wood failed first in all cases so I figured I was good to go on the guitar. I clamped the test parts after glueing and waited 24 hours before I did the failure test. The joints were ok but nothing special and I'm sure several weren't even fresh.

When I moved on to the guitar, the biggest problem I had was the short open time. I solved that by gently heating the parts with a heat gun before glueing. I built my gobar deck onto a wheeled cart so I can get to all sides to clean squeeze-out.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Alexandru,

Try pre-heating the wood surfaces with a blow dryer or heat gun before you glue. You may be getting gelling of the glue before you get it clamped. Gelling can happen real fast on a long, slim joint like a spruce top.

Thanks JJ
TJK

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Actually, the very first time I tried HHG it went pretty easy. It is as easy as fish glue or white glue IMO and no one should be afraid to give it a try. It's very forgiving and easy to warm and re-clamp if need be. Confidence is a very important part of the equation.

The more people are told that it's hard to use or that they should be afraid to try it, the more people will ignore it and not reap the benefits of it.

My first ever use of HHG was for the top braces than to attach the top to the rims. That's been it so far. How much more critical can those joints be? No issues so far and that guitars been strung up for 1 year.

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At the moment I'm struggling to glue the linings on with hide glue clothes pegs just don't have enough force to pull both pieces into intimate contact with the sides, I don't know it this is because of the tighter bends on a uke, but I did notice a similar thing on the guitar I made using titebond, but with that when I tested how secure the joint was nothing came loose and needed to be re-glued the top, back, head and tailblock all glued on easy I may switch back to titebond for this joint until I get some more fish glue.

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

John buddy you might consider not using HHG for linings in as much as I don't think that there is any benefit to using it for this application. HHG requires an excellent joint and linings are one of the places that g*ps... can happen indicating that one has a less than perfect joint. In addition if there is no structural or sonic benefit to using HHG for this application why put up with the short open time? Titebond is fine for linings and some will argue that Titebond is fine for most things guitar building.

Regarding the clothes pins have you tried wrapping a rubber band around them until they have more force to clamp with?

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Filippo what I meant was that often newer builders and sometimes experienced builders get gaps in their linings. Causes range from the bindings being ill fitted in the first place to insufficient clamping pressure during glue up.

One of the wonderful things about HHG is that when the surfaces are properly prepared the resulting glue joint, with HHG and when properly clamped, is very thin.

So with this in mind if one has any of these issues mentioned above, a poor fit, insufficient clamping pressure IMHO HHG is more difficult to work with when you add in a short open time and who needs it? Titebond is no cure for any of the issues mentioned either but at least you have more time to snug things up before the glue jells.

I think it's great for newer builders to use HHG for some of the easier things to get right but IMHO binding is not one of them.

Actually, before I worry about the glue I'm using, I'd try to figure how to get those linings in intimate contact with the sides. I use the black binding clips and those liners are tight. Then again, I bend my liners to shape in my Fox Bender. Consider doing something similar or forming on a hand bender.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I've tried a few thing and none really work, as kerfs are too widely spaced even with the sections touching each other in places there are gaps and they need screw down clamps of some description to pull then in

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

I used HHG to glue the linings on my first (and only to this point) guitar and it worked perfectly. There are some little gaps in the waist area but the glue seemed to pull in the linings to the rims. I used regular old clothes pins with a couple of small spring clamps in a couple of areas.

The advantage was that I got the whole guitar lined in one evening.

In fact, this guitar is all HHG except for the following:

rim to heel/tail blocks - simply not fast enough for that joint, used titebond. I think if I was using a mold (this was a stew mac kit) I could have done it with HHG

FB to Neck - used epoxy.

Headplate was TB,

Top bindings/purflings were CA but the back was HHG and I don't remember what I used for the rosette.

The stuff works very well in most situations.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

John--

If it is the kerfed lining that you are having trouble with, go JJ's route and get the black metal binder clips from Office Max -- way more clamping pressure than clothes pins. I also take a medium damp towel and dampen the linings before putting them into place. Five or ten minutes has them loose enough to bend without breaking. Uke bends are pretty sharp and you may have to use multiple shorter pieces, fitted prior to gluing to get them to go. I use LMII white or fish glue for this usually.

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Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC

I'd like to add that I never had this much grief doing my guitar it's the tight bends in the uke, any way I've removed the linings, and and cut extra slots in the new ones soaked then in boiling water for a couple of minutes then clamped them with the clothes pegs no glue left them to dry out in the sides, when I went to remove them they were in 3 pieces so at the moment half of the back is gluing on with titebond, but it went quite easily the next side I'll try the hide glue again to compare.

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

Katy Perry...Funny Stuff...I have four kids and had to listen to that song for weeks on end!!

As for linings: Pre-bend, grab LMI white, clamp, grab beer out of shop fridge.

Total elapsed time is 30 minutes both side with no gelling anxiety...Yes, I know it's a HHG thread but Yeeesh that seems like a lot of extra stress.

Ray

PS It's only my opinion not intended to slight anyone who uses HHG for linings...

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Guitar Building = Continuous Improvement Process

Hmm yes a little late Tod and thanks for being soooooooooo nice, I've already partially melted 1 clamp just standing a fan heater on the bench to warm a job.

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

Hmm, thats not at all what I meant.

Todd, Please don't speak for me.

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