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You'll want to make sure and put a small space heater in your booth if you have cold air coming in, either that or block off the fan when not in use somehow.

This finish cures harder when it's in a nice warm climate.

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I have tried just about all of the waterbased finishes available over the last 15 years, and the blue tint was certainly a problem before, but i just dont see it now with these new products. I had been using KTM-9 and really liking it, and recently switched to USL and like it even more, and it looks like soon i will be trying EM6000.

None of those finishes has an objectionable blue cast if applied thinly enough, but i like to warm up a finish by adding two or three drops of colortone vintage amber to a quart of waterbased lacquer. I usually spray three coats of tinted lacquer, and then shoot the rest of the coats clear. It makes for a nice diamondy clear finish without being cold.

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Jordan Aceto
Ithaca, NY

Thanks, Jimmy and Jordan, for addressing my question about the blue. That's very encouraging.

My other question is about durability. In my mind, the toughness of polyester is a big plus, especially for exhibiting guitars at shows - being able to have a lot of people handle and play a guitar over the course of a couple days without the likelihood of spending hours doing finish repair afterward. What has your experience been with these waterbornes in those kinds of situations, as well as with general resistance to wear and tear and sweat and all that stuff guitars are subjected to over time? How do they compare to nitro, varnishes such as Behlen's Rockhard, or even to polyester?

Thanks -

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I did some really simple testing regarding water resistance. Long story short, USL doesn't really achieve full water resistance for awhile but it seems to have gotten there by now (after roughly 1 month). I tested it just be leaving water pooled on top of it overnight. At first, it would decompose the finish where the water was...but at this point it doesn't do much at all. I get some really small residue lines around the edge of where the water was...and it just wipes off.

In terms of hardness, it seems a bit softer than nitro. If I had to put a number on it, I would say it is probably about 75% as hard.

Hope this helps,
Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

The thing about the blue cast, in my experience, is that it's only in certain light, and only on darker woods or stains. When I finished the one guitar with USL, I couldn't see any blue tint whatsoever. I thought, "this is great! I don't know what anyone is talking about!" Then I got it back to swap out the pickups for the client, and happened to see it in diffused morning light. Eek! Looked terrible. Anyway, just my experience. I hadn't noticed the tint at all before that, but in that certain light, it was awful.

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Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

That sounds not too cool, just because i am curious, did you add any amber to the finish? I always do, and i like the way it looks, but maybe i am fooling myself into thinking the blue cast is totally gone?



KTM-9 seems very durable to me, no issues with scratching or denting. USL does seem a little bit scratch happy for the first two months, which is kind of a long time to baby a finish. I am hoping that EM6000 is a little bit tougher.

I couple of our instruments are with people with toxic waste sweat, and those ones got oil finishes on the necks. The bodies seem to be fine, wearing normally, after several years. It is kind of too early for me to tell with USL, but i like it.

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Jordan Aceto
Ithaca, NY

Every finish is a compromise. It's just the nature of the beast. As far as physical properties go, I'd say that the currently available waterbournes compare most favorably to nitro as far as hardness and durability go. I've exhibited at the last two Healdsburg Festivals with waterbourne finish guitars and had no problems at all. In fact, I can't think of a single instance when the finish has even been questioned by anyone at the festival. Three days of pretty heavy playing from all kinds of players with all kinds of different playing styles is a pretty good test for any finish. I've not had any complaints from clients related to waterbourne finishes. I'm sure most of them have no idea what type of finish is on their guitar and most probably don't care. As long as the finish proves to be reasonably durable and is, of course, really shiny, I don't think most players give it much thought.

I do have my sunburst finishes done by Tony Ferguson and he uses catalyzed urethane. Now there is a bullet-proof finish. Almost nothing will react with it, but it's very difficult to repair. From what I hear, it's also not for the casual user, as it requires a quite sophisticated and expensive setup. I haven't tried varnish yet, as I'm concerned about the witness line issue, and repairability.

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Jimmy Caldwell
http://www.caldwellguitars.com

Thanks for your responses, guys. If you don't mind me bugging you with one more question, what is your experience with repairability on these finishes? Jimmy, it sounds like you find them to be better in this regard than varnishes or stuff like polyester or cat urethane. Would you mind elaborating on that?

As a guitar maker, my main concern with repairability is how easy/difficult/quick/time consuming it is to repair dings or scratches - and how invisible such repairs are - that may happen before the guitar is in the customer's possession. You know, stuff that might happen while working on the setup or while exhibiting guitars. I'm not as concerned about things that happen after the customer has owned it for a while, when it is no longer supposed to look pristine.

Thanks!

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

After reading all the replys and info, I decided to order a gallon of the EmTech 6000. I have used the USL in the past on a guitar my daughter has at college that gets passed around lots. Its holding up fine. Nitro has the qualities I like but I want to finish this guitar quicker than the month of waiting for nitro to cure. I should get the EmTech next week and I'll update when I use it. I will be using a HVLP sprayer.

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Wisdom is justified by her children

Dings and scratches are always a pain to make invisible, not any more so with waterbase. I recently repaired a guitar i had sprayed with KTM-9, and burn in was great, with no witness lines. 100 percent burn in is a big selling point for targets USL, although i have not tested it yet.

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Jordan Aceto
Ithaca, NY

I've used KTM4a KTM9 and USL and like USL the best for bodies. Combine it with an oil finish on the neck and I think it's a very viable thing. I'm excited to follow the experience with EM6000.
I also have never had an average player complain about the initial look of a USL finish (especially on lighter woods) but I think waterbornes still have a bad enough reputation in the commercial market that you have to be upfront with a potential buyer as to the finish. I would guess that there are plenty of high end guitar types that would love an instrument they bought until they found out it had a waterbased finish that the builder didn't disclose. Then all of a sudden it would be a pile of crap and you'd get an angry phone call and get bashed on some forum.
Anyone know of any high profile builders that are still using waterbased? Doolin and Fox who were big supporters both quit using the stuff. Is Gerald Sheppard still using USL?

Terry

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Todd,

I can definitely recommend USL as the easiest finish I've ever repaired. 100% burn-in, and never any witness lines. It does shrink back a little, so I usually wind up applying several coats depending on the nature of the repair. I let it mound up a little and scrape with a fresh razor blade with tape either on the razor blade or surrounding the repair, depending on it's location. I usually wait at least a week, sometimes two before scraping the repair, then wet sand with 1000, then 1200 grit. Just feather the repair out to the existing finish a little and buff with Mezerna medium, then fine, and the repair just disappears. One thing I would recommend to anyone using USL for a primary finish or as a repair vehicle (and yes, you can repair nitro with it) is to use it full strength right out of the can. It has a high solids content and it seems that when thinned, it looses some of it's hardness.

It's really good stuff, so I hope the EmTech is all they say it is. The primary reason I'm anxious to try the EmTech is that it appears it flows a little better than USL and that translates into less sanding and less chance for sand-throughs. That's really the only complaint I have with USL. I tend to have a little more orange peel than I'd like, although it may just be my spray technique, It also appears to have a little quicker cure time, but I'll probably wait a couple of weeks anyway. Let me know how it works for you.

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Jimmy Caldwell
http://www.caldwellguitars.com

Rod,

So you like this better than KTM-9? Why?

And, this stuff will burn into previous layers?

Great topic...

Mike

For me KTM-9 was a disaster. I had worked with nitro in the past and the minor problems were easily taken care of. The one time I used KTM-9 it never set up. I stripped the guitar and used Target USL and it was just like using nitro. I had a dark set of EIR so I did see a little of the blue-ish tint but it has held up well. I'm looking forward to trying the EM6000.

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Wisdom is justified by her children

Mike, I've never used KTM-9. I've only used nitro or shellac by FP or farmed out my finishing.

Yes, this is 100% burn into previous layers to create one solid layer of finish.

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"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Jimmy, there's a great thread on the ANZLF that Allen Macfarlen gave great detail on setting up a gun you might be interested in. I know it helped me a ton. You can find it here.

This might help others too. Thanks Allen

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

No, I didn't. I will certainly try that if I go back to waterbase. I should also mention that was also one of my earlier guitars, and my finishing technique has certainly improved, so it's possible I laid it on a bit thick. But really, in most light I couldn't see the blue.



I've used catalyzed urethane a number of times, and it does not require any more of a sophisticated setup than nitro. At least not the Campbells or Ilva products I was using. You just have to mix a resin and a hardener. It is indeed a very tough finish too, but it shrinks a lot. More than nitro it seems like. I got tired of that.

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Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

I have sprayed a whole pile of instruments with KTM-9, i think it is a great finish once you get it to behave.

I recently switched to Targets Oxford USL, and i like it more.

USL pros-
-self levels better than KTM, easier to spray with less runs
-sanding and rub out i think are MUCH easier with USL, it just sands and buffs like a dream
-USL shrinks back more, and gets "crispy" faster, it makes for a really nice, hard, thin finish
-USL seems to be clearer than KTM, but i really like the look of KTM also, and ultra clear is not nesessarily what i want from a finish

USL cons-
-easily scratched for a couple of months
-more shrink back means you have to be even more vigilant about gaps and dits during surface preparation

Both KTM-9 and USL look great if done well.

If Targets EM6000 is like USL, but a little bit more scratch resistant initially, i will be sold.

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Jordan Aceto
Ithaca, NY

Rod,

What gun do you recceomend with EmTech 6000? Also, what buffer speeds are tolerated by the lacquer? (assuming a 12-14" wheel.) And do you use the standard compounds?

Mike

Mike, I use a cheep knock off HVLP touch up gun. It has a 0.8mm tip and I have a regulator at the gun (I think this is very important). The gun cost me $35 and honestly, It works great. I have one for nitro and now one for WB. I think I'll just switch the nitro one to dedicated for shellac seal coats.

I don't have a buffer so I'm of no help there. I've just done everything to date with armstrong power. On my nitro finishes, I would sand up to 2000 wet with mineral spirits than I'd rub it out with steelwool and pastewax. Then a dry cloth to buff. Made a nice semi-gloss finish which my customers (all friends to date) really liked.

I will be trying for a high gloss finish with the WB this time. I have a lambs wool buffer that I'm going to mount in my drill press. It's 7" diameter and I have fine and ultra fine buffing compounds (paste form) that I'll try.

I would think for a 12-14" wheel, you'd want to run the shaft speed about 700-900 RPM. **********Someone please correct me if I'm wrong though. This is only based off what I've read, not from experience.***********

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Rod, thanks for posting that link to Allen's tips on setting up spray guns properly. It really helps to know what you're really adjusting with the various control knobs than just going -mostly- blindly, like I've had to do in the past (I've only sprayed a cradle last fall, which actually turned out OK for a rush job).

I'm thinking I'd like to try out this new WB as well so please do keep us posted!

Thanks,

Clint

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-Clint Beacock

Thanks again, guys, for responding to my questions. I look forward to seeing some of your instruments finished with this EmTech stuff. When I check 'em out, I'll be sure to wear my diamond-studded belt buckle, and thrash away with my gemstone flatpick, just to really put the finish to the test.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Here is a link to a topic discussing EMTECH 6000 that was started by Metcalf guitars on another forum. He seems seems very satisfied with this finish.

http://www.kitguitarsforum.com/forum/th ... 79_0_7_0_C

That topic has a few pics of a guitar he finished using EMTECH 6000. Here is one of the pics to give you an idea:

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

good point... how hard is the finish? Seems like we need a standard... relative to nitro. is there such a thing? sure would be useful.

Rod, you have a spray booth in your shop (sure it was built for nitro etc) but other than dust protection, does EmTech need a spray booth? Can I build a portable booth with filters and a fan slightly larger than a guitar and hope it will work fine for curing?

Mike

I think the key with curing of any finish is making sure you have some level of control over the environment it is in. Most finishes need a min temperature to cure properly and you don't want it too moist either otherwise you may get blushing and it can take a long time for that moisture to work its way out of the finish.

If you have heat in the shop, I would think you could spray with some filter system (always wear a respirator) even the box fan with a furnace filter to catch the particulate and you'd be fine. Summer is a different story right. Might need some dehumidifier in the shop to keep moisture at bay.

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson