Official Luthiers Forum!

Any particular reason? Bob's got his head in this, Charlie. He attends meetings of a variety of forestry groups trying to work from the inside to make sure Taylor will have wood in the future. He's not prone to hyperbole, and recognizes the need to change Lacey and quite frankly has been working to change it from within for some time. But he also understands the precarious nature of the state of the World's forests and Taylor's ability to get tone woods. I suspect that the information is accurate.

I am pretty sure that this link was on this forum several months back, and started the 10 year supply of Alaska spruce talk. Is it a stretch that the supply is that short? I think that logging old growth forests for 2x4's is a crime anywhere, but the amount of wood used for guitars is miniscule, and could likely filled by harvesting blow down trees.

Alex
http://vimeo.com/24057303

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

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Thanks Filippo, for the info earlier.

And thanks David B, for your posts.

Most of you know this already, and this is not to defend how Lacey is written, but I thought it was timely to remember the flip side of Lacey and our current problems with importing wood from India: Assuming the US does limit logging and export of Alaskan spruce to Asia, the international reciprocity agreements of Lacey and other countries' laws like it will be the main tools for enforcement.

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David Malicky

David - after rereading my last post I'm afraid it may have sounded a bit disrespectful...I apologize if it did I surely meant no disrespect to you or to Bob Taylor. I know how things on the internet sometimes get taken out of context or otherwise distorted in translation so I was curious about the source of the 10 years you referenced. I appreciate you sharing the information.

at Bobc

Don't you get me started on the healthcare bill.

Re: Spruce supply, here is a quote from an article in Premier Guitar in 2007. http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/I ... uture.aspx


The Sitka spruce is found in select parts of the Pacific Northwest, and in order to achieve the desired tones, the wood must come from trees that are 250 years old, or older. This so-called “old growth,” is rare – only one lumber company in the area has old growth in its forests. The company, located in Southeast Alaska, is Sealaska, owned by Alaskan natives. Here, the old growth of Sitka is being cut so extensively that it could be obliterated in 6 to15 years.

I can't verify the facts but I think it's safe to say we are not logging on a 250 year rotation.

There is a conversation at the bottom of the page between Bob Taylor, Chris Martin and Henry Juszkiewicz.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

Thank you for the link, Kent.

India began restricting the export of rosewood in the early-1970's. I remember it well, because it became impossible to find IRW in lumber form after that. The only source for D. latifolia lumber today is plantation grown in Indonesia.
In the late-1960's Martin built their sawmill next to the new factory to cut rosewood logs, then the governments of Brazil and India shot that right out of the saddle.

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John

As I'm from the UK I've been watching this thread with a certain amount of interested disinterest, the only Lacey that concerns me is the song from Fairport Convention's 'What we did on our holidays' album.

However I was pulled up short when I read this headline in my morning newspaper, my first thought was that someone really, really had it in for Gibson, but I reverted to a feeling of schadenfreude when I realised it was about Mel Gibson!

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

If anyone wants lots of solid info about all this, supply an email address and will respond with very interesting attachments.

This was sent out earlier today:

A Letter From NAMM to President Obama and Members of the U.S. Congress
September 1, 2011

We are writing today on behalf of the music products industry to express deep frustration over a regulation that is impacting music products manufacturers as well as retailers and owners of musical instruments in the U.S. The National Association of Music Merchants (NAMM) is a 110-year-old trade association representing the interests of manufacturers, retailers and distributors of musical instruments. Many of NAMM's nearly 9,000 member companies are being negatively impacted by the Lacey Act, a well-intentioned law, but one with unintended consequences that we feel are damaging to our industry and the economy.

The Lacey Act was first enacted in 1900 and amended most recently in May of 2008 to include criminal liability for importing, owning, transporting or selling plant material that is illegally harvested, the wide range of interpretation possible in the law and lack of regulatory clarity has resulted in great difficulty in compliance. The confusion is due in large part to the law's ambitious scope, including enforcement of the laws from all other countries that are the source of these natural materials

The recent high profile raid (multiple federal agencies with automatic weapons) of Gibson Guitars, a leading NAMM member company in Tennessee, compounded with the slow response on needed guidance for compliance that we have been seeking has created fear and uncertainty for all those involved in the manufacturing, distribution and retailing of instruments and increasingly, artists and owners of musical instruments.

NAMM members care deeply and are committed to the ecologically sustainable use of tone woods for the production of musical instruments.

We understand that long-term success depends upon future availability of these materials to build and sell the iconic instruments that have defined America's popular music traditions. NAMM member products are valued and played around the world and are some of our country's most recognizable exports. Most NAMM members are small businesses employing local artisans and others who are passionate about music and music education. They produce jobs, pay taxes and support their communities.

We cannot state strongly enough the impact that this confusion, uncertainty and threat of criminality are having on our industry even when intentions of due care and compliance are followed and documented. We have concrete ideas on how to improve the law and are ready to work with Members of Congress and federal agencies to make positive changes that will fulfill the intended vision of the Lacey Act and preserve not only the world's forests, but the vital work of U.S. manufacturing and commerce in the music products industry.

Sincerely,

Kevin Cranle

Chairman, NAMM
President, Willis Music Company

Joe Lamond
President and CEO, NAMM

Gibson’s August 24th raid issue isn’t as straightforward as it seems, since it was LMII who actually ordered and bought the wood, to satisfy a sale of theirs to Gibson; but rather than take delivery in CA and then spending money reshipping to Nashville, LMII simply had the wood drop-shipped (a common business practice) to the people who are in charge of warehousing woods for Gibson (so it wasn't going directly to Gibson's plant address). Gibson wasn't the one bringing the wood in, it was being imported by LMII.

As for the tariff code, it was entered wrongly on only some, not all, of the paperwork -- something LMII had spotted and was in the process of correcting (but unable to get an agency response to). Inconsistent tariff codes are something that's happened on a couple of our own shell import shipments when some desk jockey at the brokerage decides to change the correct tariff codes we supply (thus instantly converting a load of shell blanks into a shipment of "jewelry", for instance!).

Here's a statement from Natalie Swango at Luthiers Mercantile International (LMII), who imported the wood involved in Gibson's latest raids:

“The exporter entered the correct code for his country's export according to Indian customs. I incorrectly listed Gibson as the consignee on the Lacey paperwork...the material was destined for them, but at this time LMI owns and is (was, ?) warehousing it. The broker made a mistake and listed the material as veneers, although all other paperwork correctly listed it as fingerboards (they have remedied this with an oops letter). The warehouse employee incorrectly informed the feds as to the ownership (although they bill me for the storage fees). The officers incorrectly came to the conclusion that we are smuggling wood.”

This wood is from sustainable sources which are tightly regulated by the Indian government, and not from endangered or protected forests. And it's not just governmental permission that's involved but approval from deep-ecology non-governmental organizations (NGO's) that have done intensive on-site investigations from the trees to the mills right on through the entire custodial chain of those who have anything to do with handling the woods. For instance, certification by the Forest Stewardship Council (FSC, at www.fsc.org), or the Environmental Investigation Agency (EIA, at www.eia-global.org and www.forestlegality.org). These various watch-dog groups are working tightly with the guitar industry (among others) to provide trustworthy documentation for legally and responsibly harvested materials, while making it as hard as possible for suspect suppliers to survive.

Sure, there are a lot of woods native to the U.S. (and Australia, and other places) from which instruments can be built, but they're not at all equivalent in terms of stability, gluability, workability, finishability, durability, or acoustics. And there's no good reason to work with either acoustically or esthetically inferior materials as long as environmentally friendly sources remain available and support needed jobs in suffering economies.

And regardless of what anyone may think about the current or past administrations, or any political party, these people and parties have almost nothing to do with most of these laws which have been around for decades or longer, and which suffer from being overly vague or self conflicting; or with government agencies which refuse to communicate with each other, or lack familiarity with their own regulations; or with individual agents who are eager to build a reputation; or with the psychology of people who hold tremendous power.

Let me first say that I am not as familiar as some with the specifics of the Lacey Act. I have attended 2 symposiums where it has been discussed at length as it applies to our trade and frankly, I am more confused than ever.

In my opinion, the best way to get the government to respect our rights is for member organizations like NAMM, who collectively represents the votes of a large number of people, to use it's money & influence to get attention and demand change in Washington D.C.. This is how it is done in Washington with many member organizations such as the NRA, AARP, AOPA, MADD, etc. Most of the large member organizations have their own lobbyists. We need to do the same. Considering all that is going on and the fear it has generated, I would welcome being a dues paying member of an organization who would take up the battle for us. There exists a very significant potential number of members when you include manufacturers, suppliers, retailers and the music industry.

Mike Franks
www.mjfranksguitar.com

Interesting link!

http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/02/smallbu ... =A_SB_News

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

I can personally verify that LMII (who shipped the Indian wood to Gibson) physically holds notarized paperwork dated July 13th, 2011, from the Government of India Ministry of Commerce and Industry and signed by Daya Shankar, the Deputy Director of Foreign Trade, which states under “Subject – Clarification regarding export of Fingerboards made of Rose Wood and Ebony” that "…the Fingerboards made of Rose wood and Ebony [ITC (HS) Code 92099200] is freely exportable", and that "This issues with the approval of Director General of Foreign Trade.”

Very interesting. Looks to me like it has been a F&W screwup, or a deliberate fishing expedition to get evidence against Gibson on the Madagascar Ebony case. My money is on the screwup, I used to work in a big government agency and a fishing expedition sounds too clever to me. Will be interesting to see if they recognise the screwup (symptom - inaction and no comment), or waste more resources until it blows up in their face. In either case the wood is not going to be released soon and not without a fight. Releasing the wood would mean owning up to the screwup and some senior backside would then be exposed, and we can't have that. If it does blow up the person responsible will be shifted sideways and promoted. 20 years as a public servant made me deeply cynical when it comes to the workings of the bureaucracy, and I don't think it is any differnet in the US than here.

Australian Taxation Office, well known for bully boy tactics. I used to work as an IT person and there were plenty of IT screw ups. Put out more than my share of IT bushfires over the years but nobody noticed. My team screwed up very badly once and were heroes when we fixed it, morning tea with the big boss and pats on the back. Ha! Thankfully made redundant 2 years ago and never looked back.

Peter

Although, Peter, My experience in talking with the folks at AQIS and Wildlife and trade was significantly more informed than our APHIS and FWS. When I called your agencies, everyone knew the regulations, were consistent within agencies and across them. I'm more confident in your agencies than I am in my own.

I am glad to hear that. My dealings with AQIS and Australian Customs have certainly been good. They were very helpful in helping me sort out a problem I had with, you guessed it, USA Customs even though they are mostly involved with imports and not exports. It was an issue about the free trade agreement (FTA) between our two countries and the US people were obviously not very familiar with the FTA becuse they were demanding a document that does not exist in the FTA. Pointing out that the document did not exist and they were asking for the impossible only generated another demand for a non existant document from US Customs. For goodness sake, in the FTA clearly in black and white is says the document is "not necessary". That cost me nearly 30hrs of work to get sorted, and I never want to go through that again. It made me wonder if it was really worthwhile exporting to the US. Don't need to worry now, it is all now down the toilet thanks to the Lacey Act and an unfavorable exchange rate. There are not many US residents willing to take the risks and extra expenses involved now. It used to be easy. Since April 1st 2010 only one was willing to risk it, and I am about to send that instrument, he has just got his import permit. It has an Indian Ebony fingerboard. Ha ha!

Thanks Filippo for the interesting insight. In general we don't have that attitude in government agencies here, well certainly not in my experience anyway.

Peter

Chuck I wonder how one goes about obtaining this document. Not LMII's but a similar statement. Is there a website for
Government of India Ministry of Commerce and Industry. Seems like they should make this statement available to all.
Needless to say I need to order fretboards. By the way thank you for all this info.

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Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
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(716) 874-1498

It may not be available as public record, since it's a private response from the Indian Ministry of Commerce & Industry to the Indian company that LMII gets wood from. LMII may release the full document in a press conference next week, but until they do I can't send out actual copies of it, only mention and quote certain things from it. But it's the real deal...

I believe it's the real deal. I hope they do release it.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

I doubt that you will see this covered in the news as it isn't sensational enough . Journalists don't have the same ethic as they once had.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Neil Cavuto on Fox News had the CEO of Gibson on his show on Friday.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Bobc - that video was funny, needed a good laugh

Man I've been working too much. I'm so far behind in these threads

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"