Official Luthiers Forum!

OK...let's start a Hide Glue thread!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

That's with Paul Smith's CNC (they use the same type that Bob uses - both our Bob and Bob Taylor) and Paul's software. I actually did a neck for them once like this...and it took about that long.

On my cute little machine with my cute little software it takes a bit longer. It takes about 35 minutes on my machine to carve one and I use the router table and a jig to cut the taper first. The software side of things isn't too different though. Rhino is good stuff for the money.

Best,
Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

I dont think anyone would argue against the setting of high standards and doing what you can to achieve the very best you can, but surely if using the idea of 'standards' - then its the 'quality' of the finished product on which a builder is ultimately judged - not the methods used to create it? I already said in another thread that its the bits that can only be done by hand and experience of a talented builder that set apart an excellent factory built instrument from a 'master grade' handmade one, the time taken to learn how to listen to the tap tones, and importantly knowing what to shave here and there to achieve the desired and in many cases consistent and unique tone which that builder is reknowned for. Factories simply dont have (take) that time when building to a price.

I also feel that maybe, and this is probably controvercial as well, that it is possible to seperate the highest 'woodworking ' skills from the abilty to build a superb sounding instrument - the finishing detail and level of precise 'craftsmanship or cosmetic side of things although a good indicator of woodworking skill - learned and apprenticed over many years is not necessarily an indicator of the quality of the guitar as musical instrument? I say this as I have played some instruments that are perfect in the way they are constructed, - by hand - and the skills in woodworking are remarkable, but have been left a little saddened that the tone did not live up to the expectation - and vice versa, where instruments have maybe suffered in the fine detail, yet have been simply out of this world in tonal characteristics. Obviously the ultimate is a combination of the two - and there are a few who do achieve this and rightly you pay for it, but if asked to chose, the as what is being built is first and formost a musical instrument and not a work of art, then tone for me is always that on which I would judge and instrument and its maker - does it do what its meant to do... Just my opinion.

If you look back at some of the masters of yesteryear, many of their woodworking skills or finishing details would never pass muster even by todays factory QC standards when you take a peek inside the box, but their reputation was built on tone, design and often innovation.

Its an interesting debate, because I do appreciate the spirit of what you are saying, but I would finally add again, that 'tradion' is constantly evolving. the same as the masters of old would also make their own new tools to assist in anyway they could - they simply did not have the electrical kind at the time when they were building.

Good points, Frank. I would expect that the search for excellence in craftsmanship has a way of transferring over to other aspects of building...like playability and tone as well. If those marks aren't hit then one could always make cabinets or furniture, I suppose. I spent a day at Elderly's a few months ago and was taken by the amount of glue squeeze out on some vintage Martins that had never been cleared. It turned out that the stray glue was quite effective as a tone enhancer!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Howard's post made me go look up what Godwin's Law was. That is so funny, but sure is true. Thanks Howard, I've learned something new again.

It is possible for you to ignore the thread, no? Cause it kinda seems like you're trying to squash this discussion. Do we need to buy you a pair of jackboots?

Reguardlss of CNC, special jigs, sharpened teeth, or even having Lars son push a button, I suspect most of us could carve a neck quicker than we can read this entire thread

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

Fillipo,

It is a good question and topic of conversation and I wanted you to know that despite anything I brought up. I never to offence to your or anyone’s personal perspective at all. Every one of my comments had to do with the opinion that a guitar that contained an outsourced component should not be considered a hand built instrument. I tried to keep my comments focused on the neck since that was the point of topic.



Unlike the last time we went through this no one directly told me I did not have the right to call the an instrument that I built with an outsourced neck hand crafted. That said several of you spoke of your opinion to such a case.

My point in my post was that when you express that in a manner that implies it is meant for all builders, it is easy for a build with all the chops in the world but has made an economic or time based decision to have his necks outsourced, to take your postings as saying that he is lying if he refers to his instruments as hand crafted. To my eyes you have to know the specific about the luthier and the outsourced necks to even come close to being able to make that kind of blanket judgment.

A neck is certainly an important component and I too love making them. That said the seven guitars that I have made that used outsourced necks, (out of the 56 guitars I have built for clients) is in my eyes still a hand crafted instrument. I final shape, fit and finish those outsourced necks just as I would if I had carved them myself. The wood is of the same quality I would have chosen, I proof every dimension to assure it is correct and fitted it to the body I built just as I would if I had built it in shop.

Now if the body had been built for me, the neck pre fitted, so forth and all I did was fit the neck and body together then I would have an issue calling my work hand crafted. But the seven necks that I have outsourced did not detract in anyway from the hand built quality of those instruments.

Like I said I take no offence in ones opinion. But I find a blanket statement that one should not call their work hand built because they may use a singular outsourced component like a neck pompous unless you know for a certainty that that builder does not have the skill.

It is one thing to say;
“If I used an outsourced component I could not call my work hand crafted.”
It is entirely different thing to say;
“if YOU use an outsourced component, YOU should not call your work hand crafted.”

I don’t know if this make sense to you or not but I am not accusing you or anyone of anything. I just can not agree with the premise as a blanket statement.

Cheers everyone

Everybody knows I like to cook and one day I invited you guys for a dinner, the table was nicely laid beautifully and when dinner was served, everybody ate fried chicken, juicy salad, hamburgers and other which I bought from the mart, am I a real cook or is my cooking happening?

'Fine Handcrafted instruments' build one at a time ....eerrr from kits..

Maybe if you make your own kits!

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Filippo (Tony?) made very clear as the OP in the early part of this thread that he was not talking about when a guitar is "hand made," but about when the line is crossed beyond which one ought not to say "I built this guitar." I tried a couple of times to keep the thread from becoming about CNC, power tools, jigs, or what "hand made" means. Unfortunately, even Tony had a lapse of terminology in his last post and began saying "hand crafted" when the issue (IMO) is really what is a single luthier guitar, or when it becomes not OK to say "I made it myself." We all tend to bring in the handmade thing on related threads, but it would help the discussion here to keep it separate.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Why gee, thank you Flori, so very kind of you

Me don't really "need" another pair (I mean we really don't get to dress up and march around much anymore) but a hand made pair by Otto~mated Hans of Dumcoff in the motherland would be really appreciated. The lace up ones, not zippers and kid calf lined, triple soled with horse shoe cleats toe and heal and the extra heavy duty moon cleats on the sides, oh ya and the standard 8 inch stiletto "pencil" sheath on the inside of the ouside left calf. Be sure that the embossed swastikas on the inside of the heals rotate to the left on the right foot and the right on the left foot. But then Otto would know this.

I've put on a bit of weight so Otto will need new measurements. I would include my address, but npw days we must be careful and Otto already has it anyways.

tow to heal 29
width L 26 R 27
arch 27
ankle 28
calf 40 at 33 high
top 37.5 at 40 high

thank you so very much Flori, for you kindness, is very generous of you...I'll post a pic of me wearing them when they arrive.

You'll like Otto him the only cobbler that still stitches em up all by him own two hands.



Icu
the
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Jeffrey jong wrote -[quote]Everybody knows I like to cook and one day I invited you guys for a dinner, the table was nicely laid beautifully and when dinner was served, everybody ate fried chicken, juicy salad, hamburgers and other which I bought from the mart, am I a real cook or is my cooking happening?

'Fine Handcrafted instruments' build one at a time ....eerrr from kits.. /quote]

exactly !!.
I guess this is like all professions that are getting popular - everyone wants be a luthier but nobody wants to learn how to become one.
" I am not refering to anyone, just speaking in general.

Lars

My wife likes to say that she's not a great cook, but she shops really well.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

well said !! .
and yes , sorry to bring all up again. I will stop now hahaha. I really hope I havent offended anyone to bad ! I´ll pay the tab once we all meet

I think John watkins has closed his website for public use.

Between his major builder based mass order and comercial CNC demands he jsut has no time available to spend on 3 or 4 ofs anymore. The last I spoke with him he was working his tail off but that has bee a good while back

I think Michael's pretty much got it, and he probably knows more than I do. John and I don't talk very often (though it's always nice when we do) but I know he's been doing more and more production work. Good on him, as I can attest that the only time you get to sleep well in this business is when you're doing the same thing tomorrow that went well today.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services