Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Sun Aug 10, 2025 7:17 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 194 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:24 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:57 pm
Posts: 1982
Location: 8.33±0.35 kpc from Galactic center, 20 light-years above the equatorial in the Sol System
First name: duh
Last Name: Padma
City: Professional Sawdust Maker
Focus: Build
bluescreek wrote:
If you are going to measure success in this business in dollars and cents , I would say that real success in any career isn't about money , it is about a life style...

No true discovery was ever made by status quo thinking.
Break the mold become your own boss. Live and die by decisions that you make and influence your life. Find a passion in your life that you love to do and do what it takes to make it succeed.




Very well said and thank you John for saying it.

Yup me bailed out of the system long time way back when we still used Brylceem. Never looked back.

Me, me follow me passion, and build stuff that your eyeballs never seen before. Happier than that pig in that proverbial bucket of doo doo me is. Maybe thats why the A.R's. doing the 5K status quo knockoffs are down on the Padma with piz and vinegar in their words because I can and do what they only dream and cream over.

However me also like you John ~ "totally unemployable" and me gotts post grad work under me belt with the degrees on the out house wall where they belong. Just in case me run out of Sears catalog pages.

I've met many people in me life, but few that gotts enough b@11s to bail and follow their Blisstress. Oh well.


Any regrets...no.

Ya, and you have a good week end too John...me gonna go get down at that six stage techno rave party, get me some brain cells rewired. bliss



Blessings
duh Padma

_________________
.

Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.



.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:27 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:44 pm
Posts: 1105
Location: Crownsville, MD
First name: Trevor
Last Name: Lewis
City: Crownsville
State: MD
Zip/Postal Code: 21032
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Great post John...and kudos on following thru with your goals!

_________________
http://www.PeakeGuitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:07 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:49 pm
Posts: 2915
Location: Norway
I "took the leap" and I quit my job as an architect to become a professional instrument a year ago, after building guitars and mandolins on the side for 10 years.

I knew it wasn't going to be permanent though, as I have a young family and my working spouse wouldn't be able to provide for us all, nor would I want her to, but I was bored stiff with the job I had, and needed a change anyways. I'm now back to working half the week as an architect, at a different office, and half the week in the shop. We are just keeping our heads above water financially, and our lifestyle is far from extravagant, but this seems about perfect for me. Working full time as a luthier for a living in this part of the world would mean taking on a lot more repairs than I like, I now get to do what I like best (building), but without as much stress.

Life's good!

_________________
Rian Gitar og Mandolin


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:43 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:57 am
Posts: 544
Location: Auchtermuchty, Fife, Scotland
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Uhm.. seems there are several discussions going on at once... the first, can you make a living eing a luthier - which we all appreciate depends entirely on what you mean by 'living' and oon to be fair on the existing commitments you may have... many of which can not simply be ignored, so its not always a case of the 'not having the o..o...s' to change yor life, but it being a practical impossibility for many.

The next discussion seems to be about what is actually needed in a 'living' the life choices that satisfy us - its the simple equation, if you 'need' a lifestyle that can only be funded by a higher income, the full time build seems impossible, if on the other hand you ae happy with a simply existence, less cars, less vacations, less everything apart form happiness in what you do, then its perfectly possible.. I dont want to deate which is best, worst or all the inbetween, but needless to say we often think we 'need' stuff when in reality it only because we have gotten used to it...

Finally we have the question about the market.. are there enough customers out there to sustain ever increasing number of builders? My take was 'well there are enough players, just at the moment most by the high end factory stuff - good honest instruments that hold a fair part of value for a sad rainy day. Education seems the way forward. Some have questioned that there is a problem with lesser quality 'home made' style instruments confusing the customers... I have to say I think that's well in the UK it would be 'b*^&^x...

Mastergrade professional instruments will always stand out... and if you really cant tell the difference between on of those and a more 'early' instrument from a new builder, then the builder needs to be honest with that customer and explain it.. because its that honsety from a builders perspective that will help build customer trust.

I sometimes also think that there are folk that maybe now and then forget what it is we build. Yes some are works of art and the skill in building what are exceptional instruments is breathtaking and one in which I could only ever hope to get close to... but they are still musical instruments, thats all, and they are made to make music, not hang on th wall as objects of art... SO are ALL build styles represented on these pages, from traditional looking and sounding, the innovators pushing and exploring new boundaries, to the charm of simple approach, using folk traditions and influences from many countries. ALL designed to be played and listened to, and for my part all equally valid.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:02 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:01 pm
Posts: 1887
Location: UK
I can't comment on the Steel String world of luthiery but things are (probably) a little different when it comes to Classicals. Most players of the Classical Guitar aspire to owning a Luthier made instrument. The nearest comparison with the Martin/Taylor scenario is the graded models of Ramirez - even then the comparison is a little tenuous.
It doesn't take much working out but makers such as Fleta, Smallman, Elliott and a few others can command serious prices - along with the serious price goes a seriously long waiting list. At least two of those makers stopped taking orders when the wait grew to 15 years plus. I'm fairly certain they are financially secure. Of course we are referring to just a handful of makers. The odds of any relatively new maker joining them is painfully slim.
If we drop down the price band to circa $8.000 the list of Luthiers grows appreciably. Many of those will have waiting lists of 2 to 3 years. I'll take a wild guess and put the number at around 40. They certainly would not be classed as rich but they are making a 'middle class' income.
Then comes the Luthiers in the $3,000 - $6,000 bracket, of which there are a huge number. Some will make a decent living but the vast majority will struggle - at least in a financial sense. That is the price bracket where the single luthier made Classical Guitar is extremely crowded. It's tough but that's the way it is. Of course take my generalisations regarding price and numbers with that ubiquitous large dose of salt.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:11 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:11 am
Posts: 2221
Be careful what you wish for,cuz you might just get it!

I have been building (repairing,designing,etc.) instruments for over thirty years.

I build an instrument at a "profesional" level-sound good,play good, look good-or better.

What starts out as fun/pleasure can quiclky deteriorate into "factory" work when one has to do it day in and day out in order to pay the bills-I'm not saying this is true for everyone, but it has been true with me.

The balance in my life has been to have a well paying (RELATIVE!!) day job as a Building Inspector to support my family (7 kids-not a typo!)and do my building in my "spare" time-ha-ha..

Some people like golf,some like to ride motorcycles,some like to go to a
ball game,etc., but I love to make geetars in my shop,I can be down there for 4 hours and it seems like a mllisecond....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:50 am 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:43 pm
Posts: 52
Location: Provence
First name: Pierre
Last Name: Jacquerey
City: Marseille
Zip/Postal Code: 13011
Country: France
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
the Padma wrote:
Aerith wrote:
the Padma wrote:
it is perfectly possible to lead a meaningful and happy life below what is considered "middle-class" level. It all depends on expectations, location and personal abilities.


I completly agree with this.




Aerith, I'm glad you agree with them words. However they are not mine. I believe they came form Laurent Brondel

You may wanna say something to him about misquote.

blessings
duh Padma


A lot of quotings here...
Well I didn't think it was even possible to quote something on someone else's name: Don't quite understand how this happened, but sorry to the both of you.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:55 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:57 am
Posts: 544
Location: Auchtermuchty, Fife, Scotland
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
[quote="Brad Goodman"]
(7 kids-not a typo!)quote]

Cool... but am surprized you get the time to build
:shock: ;)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:09 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:11 am
Posts: 2221
Frank Cousins wrote:
Brad Goodman wrote:
(7 kids-not a typo!)quote]

Cool... but am surprized you get the time to build
:shock: ;)


If you want something done-Ask a busy man!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:27 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:05 am
Posts: 9191
Location: United States
First name: Waddy
Last Name: Thomson
City: Charlotte
State: NC
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
That would be "Darn Straight", or "Dern Straight", where I'm from! :D

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:52 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:50 pm
Posts: 3933
Location: United States
Howard Klepper wrote:
"Me, Alan. Yo. Moi. You quoted and misinterpreted me. Considering how this thread has gone, I'm reluctant to say more."

Sorry. I'm assuming you meant this:
" I regularly encounter people whose idea of what a handmade guitar must be is a homemade guitar, like some crudely built instruments they see at craft fairs. Instead of the broader availability of handmade guitars expanding people's awareness of the market, I'm afraid that too much of what it does is expand the misunderstanding that these are kind of rough, folky things that don't come up to factory standards."

OK: maybe I focussed too much on the last part. I have this beef about 'factory standards' and why they should be applied to us, so your wording tripped a switch, so to speak. But I also see my fair share of 'home made' ones, and can certainly agree that we need to dissociate what we do from that level of work. Given that we don't have a working guild structure here in the US, it's hard to see how we're going to keep the clueless from hanging up shigles that say 'Luthier', though.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:06 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:09 am
Posts: 783
Location: United States
First name: Kirby
State: Wa. ... Devoted (Inspired?) hack
Howard my sense of humor pushed me and I put forth my words as if they came from you, I feel you have a much more refined sense of humor and may have found it to be at best annoying. I shall endeavor to be more careful. For some reason I have a need to picture your dealing with me
with a slightly annoyed grin ;time for a little self discovery...

I may play the fool but I hate a sideways slinking fool...

Ya warn a guy he is shooting himself in the foot and he can not help but continue to do so...

Never could understand...

Thank you for your participation. These forums are as close to a guild as there currently is (in the U.S.) and I honestly think they are important.

_________________
"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"

"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:32 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:16 am
Posts: 2692
It's in context, Alan. I was not advocating factory standards as the standard for hand builders. I was talking about the impression "folksy" work makes on people whose reference is factory guitars. I will attempt no further clarification. No big deal. I wish we got the slack on "maker's marks" that fiddle makers get.

KO, You are apologizing (if that's what you are doing) to someone who was not offended.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:49 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:59 am
Posts: 1964
Location: Rochester Michigan
Frank Cousins wrote:
Players, are as different to each other as chalk and cheese and where Martin and Taylor get it right is that say they 'make a model for you' and they are right for about 80% of those looking for a new instrument... because it will do what they need it to do at a reasonable price.

These are discerning players who will probably try 20 or 30 instruments before buying the one that suits them perfectly, irrespective of the name on the headstock... and that is the other problem... being able to try many different instruments from stock to find what works best... something that only a very few hand builders could offer.


I'm not a pro and probably never will be but I think there is some terrific insight and perhaps accidental discovery on how a custom luthier might make a mark on the custom market. But first, I'll start with a story.

I used to be really into cycling and there is some pretty high dollar bike gear out there. Not quite as high as high end guitars, but pretty close. For anywhere around $5 to $15k, you can get a custom bike i.e. built from scratch to your measurements. Unlike most custom guitar builders, a custom bike will often come with a custom fitting session included. For these fittings, they use adjustable bikes and using measurements and feedback from the rider, they adjust the bike until it's "just right". Then they cut tubes and build the bike to those measurements and other specs that the rider requested.

So these guys that are playing 20 to 30 instruments before settling on one are probably still compromising. Maybe it's neck shape or action or tone, they're still finding one that's closest and not necessarily perfect. How many custom builders have a "fitting room" for their guitars?

I know I've heard of this to some extent but I'm thinking of things like the following:

Neck trial guitars - 3 to 5 solid body guitars with acoustic necks and strings just for players to try out different neck shapes.

Action trial - some method of quickly adjusting action on a fitting guitar to a player's liking.

Tone trials - basic versions of your guitars with different top tuning adjustments with a middle of the road neck for a player to check out tone.

etc...

And then finally, you have to work with enough good players to be able to push a customer in the direction that they'll like the most and that will help them as players. e.g. if a certain string spacing might be better for a person, you need to be able to spot it when they don't know it and give them some way to try it out.

If one could get a reputation that an afternoon with custom builder X get's you the perfect guitar without having to play 30 instruments, it seems one could go far.

_________________
http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:04 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 6262
Location: Virginia
Andy I love the bike analogy. As a bike racer my self I always think frame builders and luthiers are in the same boat.

FWIW I did it for two years selling guitars for about 2K. But I did repairs for 4 stores and that was where the money was.

Fortunately my degree in Geology and Information Systems has landed me a day job. After loosing two of the stores I couldn't make it. It continues to be a fun hobby for me now mostly. Occasionally I sell a guitar and have some nice vacation money :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:12 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:21 pm
Posts: 3446
Location: Alexandria MN
I agree, the frame builder analogy is right on. I always got a kick out of a quote from Al Eisentraut years ago. Something like "Bike building is not romantic. I go to a party and some guy is telling everyone he's a frame maker when I know he's barely built anything. What's the point? It's not going to get you laid."

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:21 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:16 am
Posts: 2692
Terence Kennedy wrote:
I agree, the frame builder analogy is right on. I always got a kick out of a quote from Al Eisentraut years ago. Something like "Bike building is not romantic. I go to a party and some guy is telling everyone he's a frame maker when I know he's barely built anything. What's the point? It's not going to get you laid."


Definitely not a good analogy to guitar making, then.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:39 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:49 am
Posts: 897
Location: Northen Cal.
Howard Klepper wrote:
Terence Kennedy wrote:
I agree, the frame builder analogy is right on. I always got a kick out of a quote from Al Eisentraut years ago. Something like "Bike building is not romantic. I go to a party and some guy is telling everyone he's a frame maker when I know he's barely built anything. What's the point? It's not going to get you laid."


Definitely not a good analogy to guitar making, then.

laughing6-hehe [clap]

Definition: Laconic humor = Howard Klepper

L.

_________________
Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:22 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:27 pm
Posts: 2109
Location: South Carolina
First name: John
Last Name: Cox
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Ed Haney wrote:
I wonder what the market looks like in numbers considering all 100% of the STEEL string guitar players? Here's my take on it:

nil Beginners just starting
0.07% Beginners playing for years
0.67% Intermediate players
0.20% Advanced players
0.025% Professional players

0.965% Total of all steel string guitar players who could afford and be knowledgeable enough to want a custom built guitar.

Ed


The crazy part is that this sounds about right for players who are actively in the market for a Hand Made Instrument...

But.. I don't think it paints the whole picture....

When I take my home made builds over to the local music store for a couple weeks of "Shake Down" - I always get lots of comments about "Gosh, I had no idea that someone could BUILD a guitar..."

What seems to surprise people is the idea that you can get something Better and Different than a Factory instrument... The real surprise comes when they Play it.... and their eyes get real big....

The interesting thing about Ed's number above is that it seems to bear out what I see around here... About 99% of the Guitar Buying Public has never even *Touched* a real honest to goodness Luthier-built instrument..... Perhaps they acknowledge that a Luthier built guitar might exist, or that there are people who do build "Bespoken Instruments"...... But, they have never seen one, never touched one, never played one.... Never experienced the "Truth" about a really well made instrument.... The closest many ever get is a Custom Shop Martin or Taylor.....

Personally - I had never handled a proper "Luthier Built Guitar" until I got to strum John Hall's Brazilian Rosewood Dread at the SC get together.... That is one sweet Guitar.

Thanks

John


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 194 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com