Official Luthiers Forum!

"I think it contains the important essence of self-imposed standards to which we should hold ourselves."

If a builder's goal is to become expert in traditional construction techniques and traditional tools then this is a fine standard..but say that this is the set of goals that we should all hold ourselves to is overreaching. We all build for different reasons. Take Paul Smith, Bob Taylor, Bill Collings, and the Martin farmily as examples - these folks are in the guitar selling business, not the business of perfecting their use of tools from the 19th century. As such, they use the tools that produce the best guitar the quickest and to gain the most market share possible.

Best,
Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Good point, Trevor...but you totally missed MY point.

Mine was about craftsmanship as it relates to handcrafted guitars and the standards that have historically been important to our craft. My point is that I feel that we should hold ourselves to those standards to achieve a level of mastery as defined by traditional criteria. Others can certainly do things differently and be judged by different standards. If Bob Taylor and Chris Martin were asked to be held to handcrafted guitar standards then that would indeed be over-reaching...and also wouldn't pass the red-face test, BTW.

Bob...sorry about the Lancelot reference...you'd have to be crazy to even consider using that tool to shape necks. <BSEG> Let's see if he takes the bait!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Ok then I will ask two hot questions.

First question
For discussion; let’s say that I developed fine neck crafting skills in the early stages of my lutherie development. Then at a later date I chose to go to outsource by necks through some one that I found that builds finely crafted necks. I give him drawing specifications based on the necks that I developed. I QC each and every neck that comes in and those that don’t meet specification are returned as out of spec. Also let’s say from that given point forward I only use these outsourced necks to fabricate my product. And my product made with these necks is of excellent fit, form, finish and sonic quality.

Have I diminished the integrity of the craft and or do I demean the term hand crafted?

Second question:
Lets say that while I did learn to build a suitable neck but not really as good as I wanted to offer. However I found a vendor that could produce high quality necks for me to my design and specifications and the product I turn out is again of high fit, form, finish and sonic quality.

Have I diminished the integrity of the craft and or do I demean the term hand crafted?

Keep in mind when answering this that for sake of discussion all other components were built in my shop for blanks or personally re-sawn woods.

Only “yes” or “no” answers to the question please but if one is “yes” and the other “no”, you may explain the difference between the two scenarios in a separate summation. Keep in mind that the question asked in terms to both the quality and integrity of the instrument and the craftsmanship that went into the product

We all learn sooner or later that its a do it yourself kinda thing, living this life.

Yes JJ we do need self imposed discipline, no bout adout it.

Now the part that me no quite get is the"hold others to a higher standard."

Oh boy! JJ ...

this is the can of worms me referred not opening in me last post...

But now that you have....

me wonder...

What standards?
Who sets them?
Who administers them?
Who enforces them?

Like who is this group of beings that wood set standard and hold others accountable, who are they or them that had the power and authority to declare http://www.luthierforum.com the "Official" luthiers forum? Do you think they would be in a position to administer the punitive arm of luthierie? Perhaps the government...they certainly have the enforcement , judicial and punitive systems down pat.

Who amongst us....JJ, who? Well maybe that Chris Verhoevenc, but he has yet to made the obligatory 100 guitars to even take the test for his "Master Luthiers Papers" So I don't think even he would qualify, although he seems to have the right kind thinking for this sort of approach.

Furthermore...

What is the pain of violation if the higher standards are not upheld? hmmmm
Ostracism from the clique? You know, sorta like an amputation from the "Official" body.
We could always just seize their shop, burn their heretical builds, throw them into jail and retain them to make tooth picks. Maybe chop off a finger or two just to teach them to smarten up and make instruments to the accepted standards?

What about luthiers like Fred Carlson, http://www.beyondthetrees.com/
or Edward Klein http://www.edwardkleinguitars.com/index.html
or me self. What happens to us? Eh?

I set my own standards and take a attitude to the "Official Luthiers Handbook of Standards" I guess you could always have odd balls like me rounded up and administered the usual 100 lashes with old guitar strings and if that don't work then there is the ultimate enforcement of "standards" you know...execution.

Yes, JJ, I can see it now, "The Officail Luthiers of the World" united in thought and deed, with standards to enforce. Gee we (well you, cuz me would have probably been eliminated by then) you could all dress up the same and march through the malls of the masses, waving flags and shouting slogans like "string 'em up" and "hail victory" of you standards...but then why not chant it in its original language...it went like this....

Zieg Heil!
Zieg Heil!
Zieg Heil!


So JJ, you wanna sit down and repent that suggestion of yours...repent from the French verb
ponce: " to think" ~ you wanna maybe rethink this here "hold us up to standards" type of thinking.

I could spend the rest of the day chewing this topic ...but I think you all get the idea.

My suggestion dudes is...go back to your shops and make sawdust. Your all gonna argue for the right to do what you wanna do in your own shop anyways. Well that's until the search and seizure of the heretics that don't conform to the "Official Luthiers Code of Standards" takes over.

Oh and by the way...didn't we sort of go down this type of thinking quite recently with the bondo thread?

Thus spaketh the Padma.



blessing,


NOTE: This rant is kinda what happens if you you keep over tuning a string.
Oh and JJ. thank you for the inspiration for this rant. Love ya.

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Well Gee Michael...yes or no eh....
well me decided to flip a coin ...
and I watched it land on its edge like a knife
cutting all this BS* in half.

I think I see were Michael is going with his questioning....its sorta like asking "which is the dirty end of the stick?" Right?

Bottom line here...

You are all gonna go back to your shops and do what you gonna do,
regardless of all the babble in this thread. Which is exactly what me gonna do.



blessings

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Uhm... 'mastery as defined by traditional criteria'? - well thats the trickey bit because what tradition are we talking about? We tend to view tradition as a time, a place in history where something was made one way - but should we not remember that the ONLY reason it was made that way was because they had no other choice? Because the tools they had were all there was? I ask this because at what point in time do we take as the 'traditional' one? Should we make clothes by cutting annimal hides with sharp pieces of flint? Sorry I dont mean to antagonise and I DO understand what you are trying to say, but to me its not the method but the quality of the finished product and thus how it performs as an instrument that should be the main thing - another good example is all the acoustic engineering/physics and analysis, deflection tests and that stuff that many 'traditionalists' swear by... things that were NOT available to Torres or CF Martin (I)

They built using the methods and tools available and did things by experience (and talent) - but I bet Torres would have used a 'factory techniques' had they been available to him for those areas that in his opinion did not impact on the quality of what he was trying to do.

I think there is always a danger when we suggest that there are 'standards' which we SHOULD adhere to and to go on to suggest that it is somehow better to if you have these aspirations - I woudl suggest that everyone who builds does want to build the best they can - and so will use what helps them achieve that. If it produces a good instrument, then does it really matter how it was made? Disclosure to customers for sure, no doubt, 100%, but the attention 'hand builders' give to selection of woods, the subtle mark they leave on the top when tuning with an experienced ear is what to me as a player is more noticeable and arguably more important than whether the neck was hand carved or done by a machine?

Sorry, this is not meant in anyway as a personal attack, just a general observation...

No problem I will comment on my questions in a little while. there was a reason it was asked as it was and a point to go to in responce but not yet.

WOW!

can you believe it...this thread is now 56 hits away from reaching 2000 views

and just 83 more to catch up to me No NOthing Build thread.

And now Micheal has posed a question that will take us to the extreme ends of our thinking, and probably extend this tread into infinity. Such is the nature of the divine paradox.

Will we melt down in our BS* or will we answer the question?

To make this more interesting, I will donate one of me high end orphaned Lutz tops to the dude who gets the correct answer.


tP

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Michael, et al....I reject your premise...a little common sense, please. Only you can answer your own hypothetical scenarios. Use your best judgment. If you think I'm qualified to evaluate your skills, recommend a direction or advocate a bureaucratic book of luthiery standards then you missed the spirit of my opinion if not the essence.

Rather than think of my opinion as a call to establish a particular set of standards for all, remember how this all came about. It was about achieving levels of expertise and craftsmanship. My post was intended to suggest acquiring a mindset similar to that which the traditional craftsman had regarding his trade and similar to that which Todd described. The old craftsman did it all until he was satisfied that he met the same standard of best practices as he could see it among his peers. The consequences of undershooting could mean public embarrassment as well as hurt him financially. The benefit of overshooting the mark would result in prestige within his trade as well as possibly raising the benchmark. Eight years ago, I had little or no experience in woodworking. It was my goal then as it still is to learn as much as possible about the skills and nuances of guitar building using traditional methods. But first, I had to read, discuss, learn and practice the craft of how wood works and why. A major part of that has been to select and purchase materials, tools and practice techniques that are appropriate for building guitars. I can't ever see that learning experience enabling me to buy components in the foreseeable future...I just have too much more to learn and try to apply. Buying necks for me eliminates the control over important aspects of the component that I just don't wish to give up.

Since there is no Guild that would regulate luthiery, we just need to be responsible to make sure that we exercise strict judgment as to where our skills and instruments fall.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

JJ you can reject what you want! I did not ask or imply that anyone rate my skills. In fact I set up the scenarios with specific assumptions. I also made it perfectly clear the scenarios were hypothetical was for sake of discussion only. The questions asked were direct had nothing to do with anything related to your post. In fact I did not read your post nor was I responding to it. I can’t figure why you would assume so in the first place. That confuses me.

Just got back and saw this thread was still topping the list !

OK. I have read whats been said up to now. Never though little me could make so many so upset over simply saying that my son can press the ON button !! ??
I know some CNC to. and would love to have one. Still I would not call my work handcrafted if I left only sanding to finish my necks. in roughcut on a CNC. cool !

Lars.

Also need to say- my hats off to you JJ for being so understanding ! . thanks my friend.

One thing missed here is not all commercially available necks are CNC. It is often, not always but most often assumed that outsourced means CNC and that in turns means mass produced, generic one size fits all. Even in CNC necks, bridges and other components this is not the case at all.

And then again the question does exist that if one uses an outsourced hand made neck is does it still mean that one should not call their work hand crafted or hand made? Far too many unknowns to make a blanket judgment in either direction. Like all things. Not one template is the right template for everyone

In none of my comments in this thread have suggested I think it is that it is right to imply or tell a client that you make all parts when you don’t. Also I do not dismiss or discount anyone’s thoughts or principles on this issue. But there is an undercurrent of belief that an outsourced component takes away form the quality or integrity of the instrument or builder. I can’t see how one can make this leap without knowing far more than they possibly can about any give builder. If the instrument is a fine instrument, it is a fine instrument. If the instrument is build with attention to detail and response and quality by a builder that uses an outsourced component all that really matters is that it is well build with attention to detail, quality and performance.

Now one can choose to demean the chops of a builder that chooses use outsourced components if one wishes. But to do so does not enhance nor away from that builder’s quality of instrument except in the eyes of the critic. Everyone is entitled to their own stand on this issue. But there is truthfully only one thing that is universally important. And it does not mater which side of the issue you take. That is providing the player with the best quality instrument possible and striving to always improve in your endeavors to do so.

Michae I think my point is being misst. What I am trying to say is almost excactly like JJ wrote a few posts back in this thread, namely that I think many makes a few guitars and then gets them selves a CNC machine instead of learning the trade first. to carve a neck by CNC in not what most luthiers would call luthery. thats an old profession that takes skill. To operate a CNC takes skill to, but in a totally other direction. its like knowing how to type a letter correct, ( I dont) using CNC would be like using the letter correction tool without having to know how the word spells.
would any of you call a table or chair handcrafted if it was mostly done by CNC ? well I would not. Handcrafted tables done by CNC !! ?? so whats the difference with Guitars.
I am NOT saying its wrong !!!! I am just stating that its not handcrafted !!! I am doing my best to learn this trade, might take forever, but I am willing to work on it. If I would get myself a CNC machine then I could not justify my skills as a craftsman. But if I had workt as a luthier for along long time and had all the skills I needed, and then used a CNC do do the not so pleasant work , then OK. but again that guitar is not handcrafted then. . hmmm. feel like an old 78 speed record. .

Hey Todd, you wrote

I rather train hard to become so good at this that my work will be optimized by hand. As for design - well .... I am simply king. no program can beat me. . . said with a big smile.

Lars.

I don't believe that anyone demeaned anyone for buying necks. It's a choice and we all choose our paths for different reasons.

Am I more comfortable using a neck that I built over a purchased one? You bet...in my case, I selected the wood, aged it in my shop, ripped it and jointed it the way I like with symmetrically opposing grain and then laminated it with the woods I like. And then I aged it again before it was bandsawed. And every step of the way, I made sure that it was aged and stable and flat with no twisting or warping. After going through all of that QA, I glued on a FB. As stated earlier, I would consider a CNC neck only if I could supply my band-sawed neck blanks. Otherwise, I would miss all of that assurance. Those just happen to be facts that I consider important...you can choose a different path...but please don't accuse me of demeaning you. I firmly believe we're both trying to provide a quality instrument to the player.

Lars...I had your back, Dude! You and your son can visit my shop anytime...just keep his fingers off the buttons

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

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I don't see why this is complicated.
If you say that your guitar is entirely 'hand-crafted', when some parts are made by a CNC aka robot, you are demeaning the term "honest".
No matter how much stuff is made by robots, the meaning of 'hand-made', and 'hand-crafted' is still clear to most people.

From my point of view, it doesn't matter how you make your guitars, just that you are straightforward in representing your methods of work. I use power tools and I'd never represent my guitars (or other projects) as "completely hand-made".

It's not just a CNC issue - ads for factory guitars (with or without CNC) that feature a dimly-lit traditional bench and some well-worn hand tools, etc etc are misleading as well. We've all seen them.

I think the best strategy- if you are selling guitars- is to avoid 'code' words like 'hand-crafted', 'custom-made', etc and just provide website info on your construction methods, with pictures.
ex "Here, I begin to hand-shape the rough, CNC-milled neck blank........"
Inform the customer and let them decide.

It sure is nice being an amateur and not having to worry much about this stuff!
Cheers
John

If you use parametric CAD software like Solidworks you can literally make a one off model in about 10 minutes. It would then take about 5 minutes to program the new carve....about 5 minutes to walk out to the CNC...and about 10 minutes to carve if you were going slow and being careful.

Now this is assuming some industrial strength stuff. But, that's about 30 minutes from conception to a finish carved part that requires only light sanding to clean up.

Handmade? Hardly... Does it make me all happy inside? You bet.

Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Godwin's Law is confirmed once again! But at least it took until page 7.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Here's the fine print - the above estimate assumes that I have a prepped blank ready to profile and carve. Just wanted to clarify..

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

I claim no enforcement powers. That would be up to the mods. Not sure there is a rule here. I was just pointing out an instantiation of the law.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Ya, well Howard, was easy to see where this thread was going...at least me held off till pg 7.

Yo Parser...30 min eh, Well a draw knife, a rasp some scrapers..ya, 30 min is about right, and thats including a beer and a smoke, but then you dudes know me don't gotts a clock that works.

Yo, Todd, don't bother changing ~ your signature...you know this topic only gonna surface again.

Yo, Filippo why don't we all set up our video cameras and have a contest to see who can produce the fastest neck...heck I'll donate 2 (two) orphan tops, unmatched of course, to the winner. We could ever get the Official Luthiers Standars Association to adjudicate the videos for um...QC.


the
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Okay, I spent way too much time catching up on this thread. Has this thread changed my thinking and approach to building? No. Will I feel more guilty because I am outsourcing necks? Not at all. I will go back to my little corner of the luthierie world, building guitars I want to build with woods, tools, jigs, and techniques I enjoy. I started this journey way too late in life and have way too many other demands on my time for me to ever reach a level of skill and ability believed by some is necessary in order to achieve the pinnacle of personal satisfaction. At two guitars a year, I will be 98 years old by the time I complete my 100th guitar!! My goal is to enjoy the time I have building without any need to justify my methods. I'll sell a few guitars, but I will also give away a lot of very nice guitars that the recipients will happily accept regardless what tools were used or which parts were outsourced. You pros can can continue to debate the topic, but this amateur is checking out! Have fun!

Ken

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http://www.casperguitar.com

Ok.


Me, I, the Padma hear by put forth a motion for closure to this topic.

Do him, me, I, the Padma gotta a seconder?

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Personally I think this incarnation of the beast has remained mostly civilized.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com