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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:14 am 
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Cocobolo
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Neil Gardiner wrote:
Well, maybe it's time I jumped in on this one.

I've actually played this guitar and the first prototype that Dale had made. Dale's a very good friend of mine. He made the guitar at my place in my shop.

From a sound point of view, this guitar has far superior string to string articulation than a "normal" guitar. If you try this against a standard guitar, the standard one does sound "muddy" in comparison. The downside is that volume and bass isn't as good as a standard guitar. Putting side ports between the two sides definitely helps and would be something well worth exploring more.

A couple thoughts for anyone thinking of pursuing Dale's design:

The top of Dale's guitar is thin. Like see-through scary thin. And the guitar holds together. So, I'm thinking, because of the inherent structure in the design, these guitars could be built very very light.

Another idea I had, for what it's worth, was to run the top grain the opposite way. So that it is at a 90 degree angle to the strings. The thinking being that maybe you could get vibration going the whole length of the body 20" or so and not just the 8"-9" it is vibrating now with the half width of the guitar. I don't know if that makes any sense at all, but thought I'd just throw that out there.

Neil

Neil


Neil, thanks for commenting! I didn't want to ask you too, but i'm so glad you did,
your hands on experience is of course one of the best "real life" indications of what the guitar does..
and both your ideas are very good... running the grain the other way is something I should try for sure..
I didn't realize the vibrations ran across the grain... but if that is the case, for sure it makes sense to do it that way,
as the design doesn't rely on the strength of the top for "structure"

:-)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:18 pm 
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can someone tell me how to attach a mp3 file to this thread?

when I try, it says i can't.. mp3 extension not allowed...
so i tried .zip no luck..


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:22 pm 
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Hey Dale,

You will likely have to post it on one of the free sites (can't think of one at the moment maybe Waddy or someone can help) and then post a link to it.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:38 pm 
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SOUND CLIP OF PROTO 1.

note this is not prototype 2 as seen in the video..

this is the first prototype recorded last year.

it is a standard dread size and shape,
with top bracing etc.

it was done as a base to start development,
and was the first indication that the possibility was there for awesome detail and clarity
using the 2 bodies system..

Included in the sample, at the end, there is a "traditional" dread, recorded same take,
same rig... for a comparison, this should give you an idea about the muddy thing i
am talking about, and just how clear the guitar can be.

keep in mind, this is a first prototype, and not built to be a fine sounding instrument,
it was an experiment.. unrefined, the fact that it records so well is amazing to me.

http://www.webfilehost.com/?mode=viewupload&id=9033797


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:51 pm 
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Location: Meredosia, IL 62665
Dale:

I haven't been on for a few days to see how this thread was developing. Let me catch up.

* sorry to imply or add to the implication that some or the responses seemed a bit prejudicial regarding your idea. Close minded was not a term I used or intended.
* sorry also to imply that "recording engineers" knew anything about accoustics. My bad.
* The woofer/tweeter analogy is a good one for your design. Review of the design of speakers, Bose included, could help you tweek your idea.
* In speaker design and accoustic space (studio) design a tuned "tube" or clyinder is a Helmholtz resonator. Google that to find calculations for tuning the resonant frequency of a tube. It might help give some direction.

Anyhow, I meant to be encouraging and not disparaging.

Danny R. Little


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:18 pm 
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Danny R. Little wrote:
Dale:

I haven't been on for a few days to see how this thread was developing. Let me catch up.

* sorry to imply or add to the implication that some or the responses seemed a bit prejudicial regarding your idea. Close minded was not a term I used or intended.
* sorry also to imply that "recording engineers" knew anything about accoustics. My bad.
* The woofer/tweeter analogy is a good one for your design. Review of the design of speakers, Bose included, could help you tweek your idea.
* In speaker design and accoustic space (studio) design a tuned "tube" or clyinder is a Helmholtz resonator. Google that to find calculations for tuning the resonant frequency of a tube. It might help give some direction.

Anyhow, I meant to be encouraging and not disparaging.

Danny R. Little


thanks for the response Danny,
I don't recall taking your original post in a negative light, I will look up the helmholtz resonator..
thanks for the info!!!!

Cheers,
Dale


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:50 pm 
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Neil Gardiner wrote:
Another idea I had, for what it's worth, was to run the top grain the opposite way. So that it is at a 90 degree angle to the strings. The thinking being that maybe you could get vibration going the whole length of the body 20" or so and not just the 8"-9" it is vibrating now with the half width of the guitar. I don't know if that makes any sense at all, but thought I'd just throw that out there.


I think this would make the bass even less responsive than what we're hearing now. Too much stiffness is an enemy of good bass response.

I think that to go any farther with this you guys really need to go out and try and listen to as many different hand made guitars as possible and see if there's a direction you want to go. There's still a lot of art when it comes to designing instruments but there's enough science to it that one can make general predictions to the outcome of certain designs. Specifically, you probably ought to listen to some fingerstyle guitars and parlor guitars. Generally guitars without scalloped braces.

I mentioned in another post that there will be a Luthier's gathering in South East Michigan in November. I for one would love to hear the thing in person. If you're not too far away, consider making the drive. There will be a lot of luthiers/forum members there with a large variety of high quality hand made guitars (I'll bring my guitar too, even though it doesn't hold a candle to what some of these guys put out) that you'll be able to try out and compare to. It might help focus your direction.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:52 pm 
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Dalester wrote:
SOUND CLIP OF PROTO 1.

note this is not prototype 2 as seen in the video..


That link isn't working for me.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:05 pm 
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Andy Birko wrote:
Neil Gardiner wrote:
Another idea I had, for what it's worth, was to run the top grain the opposite way. So that it is at a 90 degree angle to the strings. The thinking being that maybe you could get vibration going the whole length of the body 20" or so and not just the 8"-9" it is vibrating now with the half width of the guitar. I don't know if that makes any sense at all, but thought I'd just throw that out there.


I think this would make the bass even less responsive than what we're hearing now. Too much stiffness is an enemy of good bass response.

I think that to go any farther with this you guys really need to go out and try and listen to as many different hand made guitars as possible and see if there's a direction you want to go. There's still a lot of art when it comes to designing instruments but there's enough science to it that one can make general predictions to the outcome of certain designs. Specifically, you probably ought to listen to some fingerstyle guitars and parlor guitars. Generally guitars without scalloped braces.

I mentioned in another post that there will be a Luthier's gathering in South East Michigan in November. I for one would love to hear the thing in person. If you're not too far away, consider making the drive. There will be a lot of luthiers/forum members there with a large variety of high quality hand made guitars (I'll bring my guitar too, even though it doesn't hold a candle to what some of these guys put out) that you'll be able to try out and compare to. It might help focus your direction.


I don't think "too much stiffness" enters into the equation with this guitar,
at least not when it comes to the soundboard. it is seriously thin. and has PLENTY of flex.. possibly too much..
thanks again for mentioning the Michigan gathering, it's something I am considering..

as for the link, im not sure why it didnt work,
oh well, it was a hold over until I get a better demo video up anyway..

Cheers,
Dale


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:26 pm 
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The link works fine. You just have to wait for about a minute before you are allowed to download the mp3


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:22 pm 
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can anyone tell me if its possible to edit a post?

I would like to add to the tittle of the post to let people
know the new link is here for the sample,
and more important, I will want to add that info when I put up the better video.

Cheers,
Dale


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:05 am 
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Posts can only be edited for 20 minutes. After that they are permanent.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:23 am 
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Dalester wrote:
just so you folks have a bit of an idea why im not patenting right away,
or why maybe i should..

here is one of my earlier "inventions"
right when digital cameras came out... i worked at a newspaper, and saw the first models to come out..
they sucked, but i realized they were going to be a reality,
so i thought, well this changes how we will look at pictures,
and people will want them in there house without going to the computer.

i figured a new kind of paper was needed, that we could frame and hang on the wall,
so i set out to build a "Digital photo frame"

here is a pic...
i didnt do anything with it, other than take it to work, where my co-workers thought it was cool,
but looked at me like i was a little crazy..

you probably see these in almost every store now..
(for what its worth, there were probably others like me coming up with the same idea at the same time)


This is a joke right? Put an empty picture frame in front of a computer monitor and call it an invention?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:40 am 
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Barry Daniels wrote:
Dalester wrote:
just so you folks have a bit of an idea why im not patenting right away,
or why maybe i should..

here is one of my earlier "inventions"
right when digital cameras came out... i worked at a newspaper, and saw the first models to come out..
they sucked, but i realized they were going to be a reality,
so i thought, well this changes how we will look at pictures,
and people will want them in there house without going to the computer.

i figured a new kind of paper was needed, that we could frame and hang on the wall,
so i set out to build a "Digital photo frame"

here is a pic...
i didnt do anything with it, other than take it to work, where my co-workers thought it was cool,
but looked at me like i was a little crazy..

you probably see these in almost every store now..
(for what its worth, there were probably others like me coming up with the same idea at the same time)


This is a joke right? Put an empty picture frame in front of a computer monitor and call it an invention?


tee hee, nope not a joke,
i used the gutz from a laptop. and the screen.
inventions are usually simple things, its just thinking to make them..
it was exactly what the models on the market are now, self contained, ran on AC or batteries..
ran a slide show, and accepted various forms of media to transfer the pictures.

i didn't say i came up with something huge, amazing or otherwise,
it was not overly inspiring to me, and thus i didn't do much with it.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:41 am 
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WaddyThomson wrote:
Posts can only be edited for 20 minutes. After that they are permanent.


cool, thanks... good to know..


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