Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi all!
I´m thinking of building a flamenco guitar as my 2nd effort in guitar building, and thought i might ask some questions here first:

- my only source of info is the Santos Hernandez guitar that is described in Roy Courtnall´s "Making Master Guitars". would that be sufficient?

- choice of woods: as good cypress is becoming harder to find, what would be a good alternative: maple, alaskan yellow cedar?

- how will the golpeador influence the tuning of the top? (i´m assuming it will be installed after the guitar is finished, and it will add weight and stiffness to the top)


these are just "food for thought" questions, as i´m still in the middle of my 1st build. hope they are not too off-the-point.

thanks in advance,
Miguel.

_________________
member of the guild of professional dilettantes

Hi Miguel,


Don't know, didn't read it.


Maple is good. I personnally favor Sycamore. Don't know about alaskan yellow cedar...


Don't worry about that. The influence is insignificant.

_________________
Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

Miguel,

I use the Courtnall plan for the Santos (with bracing modifications) on my guitars. I bought the full-size plans from Luthiers' Mercantile (LMI). You might want to do likewise or take the Courtnall book to a copy store and get them increased to full-size.

Regarding alternate woods, I have made guitars out of Cocobolo Rosewood and Black Acacia with good results (excellent, in the case of the Black Acacia). Robert Ruck recommends Black Cherry (Prunus Serotina), Port Orford Cedar (also known as Lawson Cypress) and Oregon Myrtle for flamencas. I played one of his made from Port Orford Cedar and it was outstanding. I am building one from Myrtle right now.

I don't know how much the golpeador affects the sound. I have wondered about this myself.

Good luck,
Max

_________________
Max Bishop
Brighton, Michigan

The Santos guitar drawings in Courtnall will provide a fine guitar and is as good a place to start as any. But there is a lot more to making a good flamenco guitar than just following generic plans and making wood choices. Santos was working at a time when there was not a large differentiation between "classical" and "flamenco" guitars the way that there is today.

I'm not a flamenco builder (I build classicals) but have been learning from those who are.

These are consistent points that they make:
-Its about the right hand "feel", players look for the right tactile response.
-Emphasis is on an articulate mid range rather than bass.
-A "quick" sound with no emphasis on sustain as it will muddy the next note.
-A flamenco guitar is a working tool and therefor it should not be "tarted up" (much).

How do you achieve this? Its a combination of wood choice and preparation, degree of doming, strut arrangement, suppleness of the top, and bridge design. More, too, I'd wager, but only experience will tell what that "more" is.

Follow the plans and build as good a guitar as you can, then be happy with it. You'll be able to play flamenco music on it even if its not the "best" flamenco guitar ever made!

_________________
Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

thanks for the replies, people. they are much appreciated.alaskan yellow cedar (nootka cypress, i believe it´s also called) i also don´t know about as tonewood, but it was suggested to me by a famous Madrid luthier as a cheaper spanish cypress substitute, so i´m curious. it´s proving hard to find, though.
as for sycamore (i always have some trouble with this) you´re referring to Platanus spp. or to non-figured Acer pseudoplatanus (european maple)?


Good to know that about Black Acacia, as in my area (northern Portugal) it´s an invasive species that´s both cheap to get and morally non-taxing ( [self-indulgent mode] after all, you´re protecting native species by logging it, right? [/self-indulgent mode]).
Port Orford would also be a nice alternative, it´s quite usual here for construction work and veneering; finding a good quartered stock might be more difficult, though.

thanks very much for the input. the main reasons i´m planning to build a flamenco as my 2nd are merely pregmatical : i already have two classical guitars, plus the one i´m building ATM, it will be three; my fourth guitar could be something different. And, on top of that, a flamenco would let me work with different goals / woods and get a different feel from the process. the downside is that perhaps i´m still too green to appreciate it thoroughly. but the points you made have resonated deeply, and i´ll take the time to ponder them more profoundly.

once more, thanks for the replies.
cheers,
Miguel.

_________________
member of the guild of professional dilettantes

Oh, and - i´m sorry - but Douglas, what do you mean by "tarted up" ? my colocquial english is not that good... sort of "beefed up"?

thanks,
Miguel.

_________________
member of the guild of professional dilettantes

In addition to the excellent indications Douglas gave you, I'll add mine:

- Strings MUST be close to the soundboard at the bridge. Closer than a classical. Between 8 and 10 mm, no more. That is, I believe, the starting point to get the Flamenco sound. Also, that low string height reduces the torque on the bridge and bridge area, thus allowing you to reduce the top thickness to a maximum. It also explains why most flamenco plans you will find will show fewer braces (usually 5) than the standard classical fan braces (7 to 9).

- Whatever B&S wood you choose, make sure it is very light and with a bad Q factor (it must 'plunk' when you tap it. You don't want it to resonate too much) This way the back will vibrate easily and quickly in resonnance with the top, but will die fast, which is what you want.

- Action must be quite low, around 2.5 mm at the 6th string. Usually flamenco players will tend to accept a certain amount of buzz in order to achieve the comfort of playing requested for their fast playing style.

- Usually, the neck is a little wider than a classical. More prcisely, you want to leave more room between the border of the fretboard and the 1st string. Pull-offs (which are often used in flamenco style), combined with fast playing, makes it easy to push the string out of the fretboard (quite annoying when that happens). Thus the need for a little larger space in that area of the neck. Lastly, although it changes for every player, most of the time they prefer a quite thin flat D shape neck (mind are 21 mm counting fretboard thickness).

- Although many woods have been used for tops, I believe spruce is the best choice. It will get you that snappy, fast reacting sound flamenco players are looking for.

All this of course is my take on it. Other may (and will) disagree with some or all of that. In other words, your millage may vary...

Hope it hepls anyway!

_________________
Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

American sycamore (Platanus occidentalis). The figured one. Like this:

_________________
Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

You have received some great advise in these posts.

I started with the 1951 Barbero plan by R.E.Brune available from
http://www.luth.org
Then slowly,marginally changed some things that get the sound I like.

Mike

_________________
Mike Collins

OK, thanks again, guys!

_________________
member of the guild of professional dilettantes

"tarted up" = excessive decoration.

Good luck!

_________________
Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

I built my first two flamencos using the Reyes/Blackshear plan from GAL - this makes a nice guitar, although some people say it's not far enough from being a regular classical guitar. I'd use the plan again without hesitation, although I do want to give the Barbero and Santos Hernandez a shot, of course.

Mine were both build using Alaskan Yellow Cedar for the B&S - this works fine as a wood choice.

_________________
Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Like Jim, I'm also using the Blackshear/Reyes plans. Reyes is one of the top contemporary flamenco builders, and his guitars have a proven track record.

I'm using yellow cedar for my back and sides. The stuff bends super easy, but the back felt a little rubbery until I had it braced. It looks great with padauk binding.

I've heard that maple makes a flamenco that sounds somewhere in between cypress and rosewood.

-J.

I'm currently finishing my first flamenco (my 2nd guitar) and besides luthiersforum I've got a lot of help from guys at http://www.foroflamenco.com - luthierie subforum.
It is VERY important to get the action right - top curve, top dome, neck angle, fretboard profile, bridge height - it's good to understand how these things fit together before starting a build - these things are usually not mentioned in the plans.
From what I've heard Santos Hernandez is "old school" sound - raspy, dry flamenco. For a more modern sound I'd try Reyes plan from guild or 1941 Barbero plan that LMI sells.


Personally I'd stick to cypress, maple being a second choice. You can get cypress from turkey e.g. http://www.caucasianspruce.com for a reasonable price.
Good luck with your build!

I'll put in a plug for Akustikwood in Turkey while we are at it. My stack of Cypress (I'm just getting ready to use the first set) is from there, and the quality and price were very good.

_________________
Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Hi Miguel,

Maybe you can try with one of this

http://www.madinter.com/b2c/index.php?p ... 0&ref=MJCS

Jorge

Again, thanks very much for the comments and suggestions.

- I´ve been flirting with the Madinter sets, but they´re a bit expensive for an impulse buy and 1st (or 2nd) build. plus, i feel bad for having been to Madrid and not visiting their installations and choose the wood by myself. But still, something to consider as i´ve consistently been hearing good things about madinter.

- As for Akoustik wood, i dig the way they do business, but they do have a 250 euros minimum order amount, and that would be a lot of cypress. But they´re prices are good.

- Octopus i didn´t remember about, just sent them a mail to see about minimum orders and shipping fees.

- As for plans, i think i will stick with senor hernandez dor the meantime. On my next flamenco (god help me), i will investigate those Reyes and Barbero plans.


Once more, thanks a million.

Cheers,
Miguel.

_________________
member of the guild of professional dilettantes

Talk us into a group buy. It comes out way way cheaper than buying from a U.S. or Spanish source.

_________________
Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Maybe I didn't hear correctly but did you say Port Orford grows in Portugal?

_________________
"Preoccupation with an effect gives it power and enhances the error"
from "Your Owner's Manual" by Burt Hotchkiss.

Hi! No, i didn´t. Black Acacia (A. melanoxylon) - which we here call simply Australia - grows here quite a lot. Port Orford Ceder is common in the trade, but imported. Very much used for construction work and veneering.

Cheers,
Miguel.

_________________
member of the guild of professional dilettantes

Hi!
That would be a good idea, but i can´t see how i could do it. Anyway, if you´re serious, we could think about the practicalities. PM me.

Cheers,
Miguel.

_________________
member of the guild of professional dilettantes

Oops, my bad. I forgot to notice you are in Portugal.

This does presumably reduce your shipping costs from Madinter or Madeiras Barber compared to what we'd be paying here, though.

_________________
Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

fair enough.

cheers,
Miguel.

_________________
member of the guild of professional dilettantes

The guys at Madinter are really great to work with and I have bought a couple dozen sets of Cypress from them. They are very accomodating and will work with you. They have more than one grade of Cypress and mostly the difference is the presence of more color variation and grain spacing in the lesser grades.

I have bought Cypress from Italian and Turkish suppliers but have always returned to Madinter as they are very easy to work with.

Their #3 grade Cypress sets are from 1 to 5 units 33,50 € (VAT not included) and often have deals such as free shipping within Europe. They also are a very affordable source for Spanish Cedar for Necks.

While there are alot of great alternative woods for guitars there is nothing that sounds and smells quite like Cypress. I build "blanca" classicals with Cypress also as the light weight and tone are really nice.

thansk again. ATM i´m torned between Madinter and octopus. Maybe i´ll buy from both (if the missus obliges...).


cheers,
Miguel.

_________________
member of the guild of professional dilettantes