Official Luthiers Forum!

Anyone using the Timbermate filler that StewMac recently started carrying? I picked up some of this stuff with my last order but haven't had a chance to make any test boards yet. I see that it is getting great reviews and it sounds like a great product. Fills well, dries fast and can be tinted. Almost sounds to good to be true. I have not been a big fan of some of the other waterbased fillers I've tried in the past, but I'm hopeful about this stuff. It sounds like it might be less work than z-poxy (which I am using now). I'll be making samples soon but in the mean time if anyone has some experience they would like to pass along I would be interested to hear it.

Josh

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Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
https://www.facebook.com/canadianluthiersupply?ref=hl
House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com

I haven't used it, but thanks for the heads up, I might have to give it a try. I haven't heard many good reviews on water-based fillers, but when I took the French polishing class at the Brune shop, they used Mohawk's waterbased pore filler and it was really easy to work with and gave good results. The only problem is they now only sell "natural" color which is really light, and I haven't had much luck with dyes. They used to sell black which worked great on rosewood, that's what we had used in class.

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

I've been playing with it a little over the last few months and I like it. I only wish it was clear.
Mahogany was the darkest color I could find, on my first attempt I tinted it with van dyke brown and some black artist paint, worked ok but seemed to take a lot of paint so on subsequent tries I used lamp black pigment and was much happier.
You should try it, it is very fast and does sand easily.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

It's an Australian product Jim and there are a few more colours available than what Stewmac sell.

Have a look here.

http://www.timbermate.com.au

Stewmac are pretty good at listening if you ask for a greater range.

Or order direct from downunder.

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Bob Connor
Geelong, Australia

I just used it on a Mahogany parlor. I tinted it with black and brown till it was pretty dark. It lightens as it dries. I mixed it with warm water till it was about like cream and tried both scraping and rubbing it off. Both worked about the same. Two applications got me pretty close. I'll use it again.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I have used it. The "rosewood" color dried to something closer to a mahogany shade. I also have the "ebony" color and will just use that from now on. The performance of the product and ease of use is very good. It dries much lighter than the initial color you see.

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http://www.booneguitars.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Stephen-Boone-guitar-builder/488208541257210

Is Timbermate compatible with vinyl sealer and nitrocellulose lacquer?
Thanks,
jack

I also ordered some and haven't used it yet. Glad I got some of the ebony.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Wood Craft has it in stock in the store for $6.99, various colors.

Also check out this link.

http://www.savevid.com/video/timbermate ... shing.html

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Tim

My question would be: Does it finish lighter? It may dry lighter, but when you add finish does it go dark?

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I can see no good reason ever again to trust a waterbased pore filler.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Howard - would you mind expanding on this a bit for those of us who don;t have any history with waterbased pore filler, or any other kind for that matter. I may be the only one, though.

Thanks to everyone for the tips. I'm going to work up some samples on Rosewood and Mahogany using the different colours.

Howard - I too would like to hear your experience with waterbased filler.

Jack - I think on the StewMac site it says you can use under Nitro after 24 hours of cure. I guess I'll find out with my samples as I use Nitro

When I started building about 8 years ago I tried some waterbased fillers and was not happy with the results, but my poor results were probably due to my lack of experience as much as anything. I switched to epoxy after that and have been using it since. The thing that got me interested in Timbermate was all the positive things I have heard about it, which is a lot different than what I've heard about other waterbased fillers on the market.

Josh

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Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
https://www.facebook.com/canadianluthiersupply?ref=hl
House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com

Yes it does and very much so Waddy.

Like most water based fillers the colour is quite a lot darker once it is under a finish and you should check your colour match by sample and adjust the tone by blending lighter or darker varieties of the product to achieve exactly what you are after. However for pore filling, darker is always more appealing than lighter IMO. On the colour match, I don't think it is a good idea to allow a product name to interfere with the reality, there is no such colour as Jarrah or Walnut, just think of them as red and dark brown and your work will improve for it.

I have used the Timbermate product quite a few times and it shows no real sink back. I have used it with very good effect on an instruments however in that application I will leave the fill 'proud' in good drying conditions for at least a few days before sanding back. Not that I have noticed any sink back issues with the product, in fact I have used it in construction work and furniture repair where I have sanding back within the hour and not had sink back issue. But given the amount of time spent in getting things to the finishing stage of guitars construction, I just like to invest a little 'wait time' be sure and given that I live in a fairly hot and dry clime, those of you in wetter areas may need to invest a little more to get the same results.

I should mention before sign off that just like most any filler, if the divot is deep you do need to layer the fill. e.g. apply, dry, apply, dry, apply, dry, etc.

Cheers

Kim

Hey Kim, on the Timbermate website they say you can fill up to about 6mm deep in one application. In my book that's a pretty deep divot. In your experience, is that a realistic depth for a single application?

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Smell issues? Someone said it really stinks...

Hmmm........ its a pretty good product Steve and I am certain that under 'certain' conditions with 'certain' set parameters of acceptable results, the advise on the website would be very accurate. I am not suggesting that the manufacturers are lairs, but common sense should prevail. For instance a little bit of sink back on a large project like where the wall stringer of a staircase has been fixed to a brick wall via nailed 6mm hardwood dowel rawl plugs, is not going to show more sink back 'in the scheme of things', than anyone but the complete nit picker would be concerned about. On the other hand, if a 6mm (1/4") sap vein were to reveal itself in the surface of a table top just as it were being preped for finish...well you would be better man than I am Gungadin if you would pump it full of 'any' filler and hope for the best....2mm preferable, maybe 3mm at best for me.

Cheers

Kim

That makes sense to me, I'm looking forward to trying it out soon.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I didn't find that an issue Hans but I can't smell that well! I would second the wait until sanding back, I did it after a couple of hours and I think I pulled some stuff out of the pores. I'll try overnight next time just to see-

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Hmm, subjective stuff there Haans.....I mean lets face it, some people really like the 'sound' of an Ovation..Sure Timbermate has an odour, but I personally do not find it noteworthy....epoxy does not smell overly offensive to me either.....but it is.......... At least Timbermate leaves my skin where it is meant to be.

For anyone who is thinking of using Timbermate, I reckon it is just like many of things we deal with in lutherie, there is only reward for those willing to learn.

So many people jump into things half tuned and when it falls in a heap before their eyes, look to point blame at the product because they cannot accept that they did not have the patience to develop the required skills. I guess the logic is that they followed directions, it did not work, therefore it must be the products fault, and this would be fine if it were not for the fact that others (those who took the time to learn) are achieving great results.

Back to Timbermate filler, as I have already mentioned, I allow more time for it to dry but with good reason. The fact is that I 'use' the product to acheive what I am after. I don't simply take for gospel a label written for the home reno handyman that says something like:

1: Choose the correct colour for the wood you need to fill.

2: Apply filler to nail holes and other imperfections in the wood with a spatula.

3: Sanding level when dry and apply finish.

That crap is directed squarely at the biggest target market. It reads to sells the product while its still on the hardware store shelf..they all do, its a sales pitch that is no more than a long way of saying "Quick and Easy" because 'that' is what lands it in the basket. I am not saying the instructions are completely misleading because they are not, they work just fine for door frames and big arsed pergolas, but you people are building guitars for goodness sake so you will need to lift your game above that spiel or find a new hobby.

1: As mentioned I 'blend' different colours of the Timbermate product (reds, dark brown, tans and neutral, forget the wood names they are no more than a suggested starting point) to achieve the tone I am after, usually I prefer the fill to be a good deal darker than the wood I am using as this contrast will show the wood for what it is, a product of nature not man.
2: Rather than leave the Timbermate in a 'clay' like consistency as packaged, which is great for fast filling nail holes etc but little else, I mix it with a good amount of water to form a thinnish paste so it will spread easily without drying out and balling up. This allows the filler to penetrate well into the grain properly. The correct consistency of the paste is a matter for trial and error, the window of success is large enough for it to be suffice to say it is not watery nor too thick.
3: I leave the mix proud of the surface, in fact if application is done correctly, the whole project looks like mud when I am done.
4: I leave the Timbermate to dry as per my previous post, especially because I added so much water so I figure it requires longer to get rid of it again. I suggested a couple of days in good drying conditions but any user will need to develop their own assessment skills to match their own environment....avoid firm directions, they only provide false security.
5: I then sand the filler back level...but like I said its gotta be 'dry', not home reno guy dry, I mean building a guitar 'dry' and I wipe the project down with naphtha.
6: With all the excess now removed and the filled wood exposed to the air, I leave alone for another 12 to 24hrs. I then examine the surface reeeeaaaly close and if I think there is even a 'hint' of fall back, it gets another fill, all be it very lite in coverage but heavier in consistency which reduces the wait considerably.

This information is just a rough guide, the true recipe that 'will' work just right for you is waiting in your workshop, you just need to go out there, get your hands dirty, and grasp it.

Cheers

Kim

Just wondering if it is a toxic kinda smell like McFaddens...

The stuff I hated was LMI microbeads. It bridged the pores and then sank in under finish. For all I know, Timbermate may be great, but I use either epoxy or old fashioned solvent/oil varnish/silex stuff. I get good results, and see no reason to take a chance. Some manufacturer is always solving all the previous issues with waterbased products. Year after year. I'm too old to care.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I have not used McFaddens Haans so cannot really offer comparative comment, it does have a odour no doubt, but it is not a smell I would describe as predominantly "toxic" but then I would not use it as an aftershave either. I did have a look at the MSDS for Timbermate and it seems quite inert compared to some I have read with only a suggestion that it could be a mild eye irritant and may cause some temporary skin irritation (I have not experienced this, maybe the scouring from the effects of epoxy has left me more resilient )

http://www.timbermate.com/product_description

Cheers

Kim

The smell isn't that bad, I just light a cigar... clinton

OK, I have tried the ebony stuff on BRW. I've sprayed 3 coats of lacquer over it. Fill wise, it works great. I just put a layer on, let it dry and sanded it back to wood. Don't see any shrinkback. However, now find that I have to sand all the finish off and try to get the stuff out of the pores. The color does not darken with finish. It is grey and looks horrible with BRW.
Don't know if I will use it again. Depends on whether I can darken it to be black when dry...