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I was looking through one of the Big Red Books of American Lutherie the other day and came across an article by Ervin Somogyi on Health Hazards in lutherie. His information on epoxy was pretty alarming. Something along the lines of the fumes of one the agents being carcinogenic with a very low threshhold value. And that toxic gases are given off when the cured glue is heated.

I'm curious if those of you who are using epoxy are aware of this information? Is it something to be taken seriously, or is Somogyi's info outdated (I think the article was 15-20 years old).

Do you guys wear some kind of respirators when you're using the stuff?
Walter

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Walter Lay
"It's taken me so long, but now that I know
I can see. All that I do or say, is all I ever will be"
- Billy Joe Shaver

I had a long bout with VERY elevated liver enzymes. All the normal causes didn't apply. I went to some specialists and after some investigating and me being very careful with the fumes as well as getting CA on your hands my numbers dropped drastically. I don't know about epoxy, but be careful around superglue fumes and getting too much of it on your skin!

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

John is right to be careful.

Remember this thread: http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=19669&hilit=epoxy+reaction

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"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck

after an incident I had with cured CA and a belt sander I will ALWAYS wear a respirator when working with the stuff!

I had 25' of curved half wall cap made out of hard maple to deal with....the material was supplied with a lot of chatter which required me to either ignore it (which would have meant not sanding the splice joints as it would have looked rather odd to have nicely surfaced wood at splices and chatter everywhere else) or sand it all....I chose (because of my work ethic) to sand it all...I had one area blow up when my router hit it (I layered strips of MDF on the underlying curved half wall as a form to create the specified overhang and used a big ass flush cut off bit to shape the cap) and decided to use CA to fill/bond the wood....I then proceeded to use a belt sander to level it out...I got seriously frakked up when I did that...belt sanders create a LOT of heat when used on hard maple!...I was red in the face and all of my co-workers were seriously concerned as they saw the effects a mile away...

so, long story short, CA is some very nasty stuff...

I agree whole heartedly about caution and safety. So much of what we use in the art can be hazardous to your health over the long and even for some the short term. The chemical resistant "THICKSTER" gloves are excellent for all phases of work keeping chems off the sponge known as our skin. And fume blocking painters respirators, safety glasses, and proper shop ventilation are critical during the use and curing of all chemical products. Yes even those listed as bio-degradable. If you can't put it on your food or in your beverages, protect yourself using all the necessary equipment. It's also best if you spray your finishes on to wear disposable coveralls or long sleeves and a hat. Our skin will ingest just as many toxins if not more than our mouths just as John expressed regarding his near tragic experience. I often look like I'm preparing for a trip to the undersea or outter space environments while working in the shop. When doing a lot of cutting sanding or anything that generates a lot of fine particle dust, I use a Triton Hooded Power Respirator. Better too safe than so sorry! I've been trying to develop methods of construction and finishing in all my builds that are as non lethal as possible. I have been contemplating abandoning the Epoxies all together.

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

John,I believe those liver enzymes are caused from too much whiskey.
James

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

What kind of respirator would one wear to keep Epoxy fumes from kicking epoxy and CA out of your lungs?

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There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

Here's a couple of links Chris;
The Filter that would be sufficient is here and a good mask is here good ventilation is also critical.

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

The key ingredient in the respirator for this application is activated carbon.

Be sure to check the date on the cartridge, and replace it when it expires. Activated carbon sorbs until it is saturated -and it will become saturated from exposure to room air over time.

-jd

Chris this respirator is on sale right now at JC Whitney and it would be sufficient for any thing we use in lutherie. The one I posted before is what I use because I tend to go the extreme route when it comes to safety and health.

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

Bill thanks for the input. I'm getting right on this issue. I use a lot of CA in the shop.

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There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

You're welcome Chris. And this is where I usually get my THICKSTER Gloves. I usually buy them by the case so they last for a couple of years. If you get the right size they fit well (not loose) and they have a textured surface so you can pick up small items easily. I use them for virtually everything.

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

Bill thanks for that suggestion. I switched to Nitrile several years back. I buy them in bulk also as I use them both in the shop and in my business.

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There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

Aside from a respirator, a BIG tip with any of this stuff is to remember to keep a fan running on you as you work to push the fumes away. As I understand, the fumes of epoxy have an 'extremely' small molecular size, and just like fine rain, are the most effective at soaking you to the bone.

When I posed a question to the highly regarded dermatological specialist who treated my own epoxy contact dermatitis affliction 'why had a respirator and full cover clothing not been sufficient to protect me from the effects of the fumes?' he answered, "The fumes of this stuff are 'really' bad, they have about as much respect for human skin tissue and your clothing as does mulberry juice, it just goes straight in, they offer no real barrier at all".

It is acknowledged that a 'contributing factor' to my own affliction was to re-wear epoxy dust impregnated clothes during sanding. But don't be foolish enough to get too hung up on this point and allow yourself to become blinded to the very real dangers presented by the fumes alone. Rather my advice is to do what you can to avoid the fumes and at the same time, remain acutely aware of the fact that even when this stuff has gone off and set rock hard, any sanding dust is 'still' toxic.

Zpoxy instructions will tell you that the product 'can' be sanded in as little as 6 hours. To me this is like saying you 'can' balance on a skateboard placed on the roof of a speeding car whilst juggling hand grenades. I guess you 'could' do such a thing but it's not advisable. I would suggest avoiding any sanding operations for at least over night, this will take the grenades out of the picture. Waiting 24hrs will remove the speeding car from the equation and 48hrs the skateboard, but keep the respirator on, don't re-wear dust contaminated cloth, and have a fan running at ALL times. Simple rule to remember when dealing with epoxy sanding dust, 'The greener the mix, the meaner the mix'.

On Ervin Somogyi's comments re epoxy being carcinogenic, it is my understanding that there is currently no scientific evidence to support that statement, however I may be wrong.

One thing I will say as a point of clarity is that as far as I am aware, epoxy in itself is not overly toxic. Because of the relatively low toxicity levels, your body 'may' choose to ignore this invader for years, or even forever. This is why many of us 'can' tolerate varying levels of exposure with seemingly little or no ill affect. The problems start when, for what ever reason, (in my case this was probably due to an overload of dust and fumes together) an exposure finally triggers the immune system to do something about this foreigner. In this circumstance, your own immune system becomes your biggest enemy.

This is because the immune system has nothing in place to deal with this 'unknown' invader. In order to defend as programmed, it has no choice but to pull the big guns and so your body will commences full stream production of killer "T" cells. It is their job to indiscriminately destroy 'all' tissue in 'any' affected area with the idea being that the affected tissue will fall off or rot away and take the invader with it.

Now I can tell you first hand folks that the discomfort which comes with having your nerve endings and skin tissue destroyed in your arms and legs over a period of weeks by these killer "T" cells is not something you want to run to sign up for. And the big issue remains that once your body has reacted in this way, the chemical message remains with you and your immune system is more likely to react with more vigour in creating these killer "T" cells with each new exposure.

This means that someone who has suffered contact dermatitis has now probably got a heightened level of 'sensitivity' to epoxy fumes, and remember, their tiny molecular structure make them very good at getting into the body from all over. Should such an individual have their skin re-exposed at any level it can obviously mean real problems for them. Should they breath the fumes triggering a reaction in the lungs, it can be outright lethal. As I said, those killer "T" cells destroy 'all' tissue in 'any' affected area with the idea being that the affected tissue will fall off or rot away and take the invader with it. You can't grow new lungs after you have coughed them all out into a kidney tray.

Be safe, this is nasty stuff u'r dealing with.

Kim

Walter, last year there was a member here who went through a seriously nasty reaction with epoxy. There was quite a bit of discussion about it for several weeks. If I remember correctly, it was stated that the toxins associated with epoxy are very capable of passing through latex gloves as well as clothing. As far as the carcinogenic aspect, there is no doubt that Mr. Somogyi's information is outdated. I'm sure that it is much worse for you than it was thought to be 15-20 years ago. We don't often know the repercussions of various exposures for many years. Wood dust is also a carcinogen. There are many things that we commonly use that are. Cutting MDF and other manufactured woods causes many small particles that contain nasty glues to be airborn and inhaled. Various solvents that we regularly get on us, not to mention the things that we eat/drink/breathe on a daily basis, all of which is probably cumulative as far as it's long-term affects on your body. With that said, if it is a concern, it would be best to limit your exposure. Choose hide glue and shellac made with ethanol. Use egg whites as a pore-filler. Use hand tools whenever possible to decrease fine particles. Limit and/or use precautions when using the exotic tropical rainforest type woods. Use the nasty stuff cautiously and with common sense. Respirators, gloves, lots of ventilation. Be careful when you do sand it.

Darrin

Bill...pay attention to Chris' comment about nitrile gloves, they are far better at protection from many chemicals....

I think if you work with stuff like this alot it's worth while wearing a resporator and even vinyl gloves and eye protection.

This thread is opening my eyes to some stuff.
I got a bad rash all over my arms and upper body the only time I used Z-poxy. It was also the only time I've used Lacewood. I've read that 1 in 5 people have skin allergies with Lacewood so I thought that was the problem. It wasn't until I was pore filling that the rash appeared. I thought it just took that much Lacewood exposure to cause the allergy. I also had another real bad habit. I would always shower after finishing up in the shop but I'd wear the same shirt and pants for days. My daytime job is an automotive tech. I can't wear my oily/greasy clothes working with wood so I'd wear the same dusty shirt and pants in my guitar shop for several days(afternoons in the shop). I didn't see a problem since it was 2 or 3 hours a day. When I used the Z-poxy I put a coat on during lunch (12 o,clock) and sanded it that evening.(7 or 8 o'clock). Than again the next morning. I guess I'm lucky I only got a rash. I'll have to put some Lacewood dust on a bandaid, and sick it to my leg for an allergy test. I really liked the Lacewood but I have removed it from my build list. Maybe it wasn't Lacewood after all.

My Wife done all the final sanding on the guitar but it had sit for a few days before she touched it. I'm guessing the epoxy had cured enough to be safer by then.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

Howdy Mike,

I will agree that Nitrile is better for those who are prone to allergic reactions (of which I have none) than Latex. And, dependant upon the grade of Nitrile you buy it has better resistance to most solvents than Latex. There are 3 grades of Nitrile the least of which is for household use and the highest of which is used in Medical (primarily paramedics) and Industry. Facts which I've been aware of for many years having spent much of it actively involved in corporate chemical safety teams and the purchase of, as well as educating employees on, safety equipment. In certain cases, Nitrile is the very best substitute for Latex, each have their own pros and cons over the other.

That said however, and please understand it is not my intention to be contentious, I must also mention that the chemicals used in the art of lutherie typically are not the kind that break down Latex! I use Acetone from time to time which is one of the harshest chemicals on Latex and with a high volume of use it can indeed cause the Latex to distort, stretch, and ultimately fall apart. For this, I know that Nitrile will hold up better. But, for a quick swipe on Cocobolo with a little on a rag which typically is all I use, not a problem. And that, radically infrequent in occurrence has no affect on the Latex because it must be saturating contact for a few minutes to destroy the Latex. Latex is factually and scientifically proven to be superior against, epoxies, glues, lacquers, alkali's and acids, as well as most other chemicals. Though both are used in labs and hospitals, Latex is the glove of choice. In certain applications, Nitrile, in others, Latex, thus determined by the pros and cons of each. In lutherie with the products commonly used, if your allergic to Latex, by all means use Nitrile. But both are equally protective regarding what we use and my personal preference since I have no allergies, is Latex. I do appreciate your concern though.

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

Just to clarify, so that I'm not in danger of misquoting Mr. Somogyi, I believe what the article stated was that one of the catalysts commonly used when mixing the 2 parts of epoxy, is carcinogenic - some kind of cloro-something or other.

And Woody, my hats off to you man. Getting your wife to do your sanding may the greatest accomplishment in lutherie that I've heard of. I doubt that I will ever be able to do that, but I may try. Any tips? I don't think she'd go for it even if I built her a downdraft table like JJ's.

Thanks,
Walter

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Walter Lay
"It's taken me so long, but now that I know
I can see. All that I do or say, is all I ever will be"
- Billy Joe Shaver

Bill, I am heartened to hear that you are completely aware of the differences between nitrile and latex...

the increased protection against ketones and the like is what got me into using nitrile...I get rather anal about how clean I keep my spray guns tend to bathe them with copious amounts of thinner!

I do still have to agree with you about Nitrile though I just have a tough time keeping from tearing Nitrile to pieces on my big paws. Often times I can't even get them on without destroying a pair. If it were not for that, the Nitrile would probably be my first choice since it doesn't pick up contaminates (ie. ebony dust) as easily as Latex and is easier to clean with a paper towel or a quick rinse of water. My lovely wife has suggested lanolin on my hands and I've tried that but then the Nitrile just slides around if I try to pick up small objects.

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

Bill, you may need larger nitrile gloves. They come in several sizes. Or you may need thicker gloves as the ones from the auto parts store are pretty thin and tear easily.

Howdy Barry,

If you have a good source for the thicker variety of the Nitrile's I'd be more than happy to give those a try. The need for tougher gloves is the very reason I buy the THICKSTER latex gloves. I require XL for my paws and thus far all the XL's I've tried in the Nitrile variety fit me more like LG. I also like the longer cuffs which I've not found in the Nitrile. If these are available somewhere at a reasonable price, please add a link and I'll give 'er a whirl.

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

Here's a list put out by Texas America Safety Company that everyone might find helpful regarding chemical resistance specifics for glove selections. This is the most complete list that I've seen anywhere. And Barry, I found a good source for the HD Nitrile gloves with 12" length and sizes up to XXL. I was just being lazy when I asked you for a source but I got over it.

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!