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 Post subject: Somogyi Books
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 4:16 pm 
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Koa
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Location: Nr London, UK
Hi Guys just had an email from Ervin about his books he's doing a pre-publication price of $225 for the 2 which I feel is a little steep just wondered if people think the price would be worth it as I heard how good he is, and he seems to have a more unique approach.

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 Post subject: Re: Somogyi Books
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 4:31 pm 
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Koa
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for $10 more he'll autograph it also..


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 Post subject: Re: Somogyi Books
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 4:39 pm 
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Do we know what material is being covered?


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 Post subject: Re: Somogyi Books
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 4:47 pm 
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Go to his website. He has an outline of the contents.

Does anyone know how to order the books? I didn't see an order place on the site.

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 Post subject: Re: Somogyi Books
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 4:54 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Can you put a price on knowledge?

I'll order them.

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 Post subject: Re: Somogyi Books
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:07 pm 
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If you go to his website there's lots of info. There's a lot of discussion in the archives here. You could also go to www.dreamguitars.com At the very bottom left hand side of the page click on pre-owned guitars. Scroll down to the Somogyi OM and listen to the sound clip. If you have doubts, that ought to clear them up.

I'll be ordering them.


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 Post subject: Re: Somogyi Books
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:16 pm 
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Koa
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WaddyThomson wrote:
Go to his website. He has an outline of the contents.

Does anyone know how to order the books? I didn't see an order place on the site.


I bet if you contact him via email he will respond...I inquired about his books 6 months ago, he put me on his mailing list, and I got the email about the pre-release pricing yesterday...

I'm going to go ahead and pre-order the books and splurge and spend the $10 extra for the autograph..


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 Post subject: Re: Somogyi Books
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:35 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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I'm interested in the pre-release too - Mike, Jon, anyone wanna enlighten us as to pre-order?

Thanks! [:Y:]


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 Post subject: Re: Somogyi Books
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:43 pm 
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Koa
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Location: Nr London, UK
Quote:
i:

You wrote me a letter some time ago asking about the availability of my
forthcoming books titled The Responsive Guitar, and Making the
Responsive Guitar. The books will be here by the first of July.

The books are really good, and priced like any textbook -- which they
are. I’m offering them at a pre-publication price of $225 for the set.
Please read further on for explanations, descriptions, and details.

I can’t personally answer everyone who has writen to ask about these,
but I thank you and everyone else who has been in touch with me for
their interest. Many of the letters have been quite warm and personal,
rather than simply being an inquiry. Writers have told me of their love
affair with the guitar, their hopes and struggles with it, and even
bits and pieces of their life stories as they revolve around this
wonderful and fascinating intrument. I thank you all, with this
blanket email of my own.

Some of the mail I received was from individuals who own music stores
and were asking about whether they could sell my books. Of these, I
ask that they get in touch with me again now that my books are nearer
to being a reality. But this letter is about selling one set of the
books to you, at a pre-publication discount.

Let me describe the books. I’ve written two volumes, because there was
that much to say about the guitar. Volume 1 is 350 pages
long, spread
out among 34 chapters on every segment and function of the guitar; it
is about how, how much, and under what conditions guitar makes sound.
It also describes how the modern guitar came to be how and what it is.
Volume 1 is more or less a bible for guitar makers. Volume 2 is 300
pages long, spread out among 32 chapters that are equally
comprehensive; it describes my method for making the guitar in its
various forms: classic, flamenco, and steel string. It describes my
shop, my techniques, my tools, my jigs, my templates, and my work
focus. It also presents alternative methods for accomplishing various
specific tasks and procedures.

I have power tools, of course, but I do an awful lot of my work with
hand tools even this late in my career, and this is part of the
methodologies that I explain. Finally, this book gives more detailed
information about the specific tasks and skills of making a guitar both
playable and playing in tune, than other texts on lutherie do.

These books will be in hard cover, printed on good quality paper.
Volume 1 has a lovely 32-page color photograph section (most of the
photos and figures in both volumes will be in black and white), and
both have beautifully designed dust jackets, full lists of sources and
resources, bibliographies, glossaries, and indices.

After much thought I’ve decided to price these at $140 each, or $250
for20the set (plus shipping and handling). These prices are
significantly higher than most books on lutherie that are on the market
today. But they are very much in line with the cost of pretty much any
textbook in any college or university. These are both high-quality
textbooks that are brimming with non-technical and easily
comprehensible information of a kind that is available nowhere else.
Keeping in mind that it is common to spend this much money on a single
set of guitar wood from any lutherie supplier, I think they’re pretty
cheap.

I’m trying to raise money at this time to pay for the second half of
the printing costs. So, as I mentioned above, I’m sending this letter
out to offer them at a pre-publication discount price: a flat $225 for
the set (including shipping, handling, and whatever taxes may apply).
For an additional $10, I will sign them and attribute them.

I’m also planning to have printed a limited collector’s edition, bound
in leather, with fine slipcovers, and with all the bells and whistles
that really fine books deserve. They will be more expensive, of
course, and hopefully will become heirlooms. Let me know if you are at
all interested in any of these.

If you’re interested in this offer, please send me a check or money
order in the proper amount to 516 52nd street, Oakland, California,
94609. I will send you a receipt for20your payment, and when the books
are in my possession I will send them to you.

Yours truly, Ervin Somogyi

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 Post subject: Re: Somogyi Books
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:43 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:57 pm
Posts: 780
Location: Austin, Texas
well....since I received an email from Ervin on the subject I feel it is not my place to give the specifics, but I bet you a dollar to your dime that if you contact him via his email as given on his website he will respond...


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 Post subject: Re: Somogyi Books
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 6:57 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I ordered them a month ago. You just send him a check to his address.


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 Post subject: Re: Somogyi Books
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 9:44 am 
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Koa
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Location: Nr London, UK
Being in the UK makes it difficult to write cheques and expensive to do money transfers to the states, so I emailed him asking if he had a paypal account he replied that there will be one via his website by the end of the month, so I'll be using that. I also mentioned that I thought he may take some flack because of the pricing and charging for autographs, but when your realise he's been working on this for 8 years and to date has spent $30,000 in getting this published your really get a feel that the guy isn't doing this for the money he's doing it for the love of the instrument and just doesn't want to end up out of pocket.

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 Post subject: Re: Somogyi Books
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 11:28 am 
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Cocobolo
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Is this a bad time to point out that textbooks are priced the way they are because students have to buy them? Literally, they have no choice.


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 Post subject: Re: Somogyi Books
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 11:34 am 
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They are also priced that way because, as books go, they are relatively low volume sellers. The market for a book of this type is pretty small. It won't make the NY Times Best Sellers list. The price has to be pretty high to recoup the costs of publishing. Text books are also changed frequently, so every year there is a different publication.

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 Post subject: Re: Somogyi Books
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 11:50 am 
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After seeing his work and hearing his guitar. I'm sold! The man is a fantastic craftsman and teacher. I consider that price cheap for what he is offering.

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 Post subject: Re: Somogyi Books
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 11:57 am 
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You know, I see things so completely different.

Here is a guy with 40 years of experience under his belt and someone who is considered to be at the very top of this craft... not just by players but by other builders as well and he has taken the better part of a decade to write down everything he knows about the guitar, and how he goes about building them. I see this as a gift to the entire industry, not only to those who are building now, but those yet to come.

And in addition to this effort he also had the privledge of laying out $30,000 of his own money to see the project come to light. I really don't see how any of us can really complain about the price. Even if he does manage to recoup his $30k, what has he foregone in terms of time? How many guitars could he have built (and we all know what those sell for).

And I think John Mayes' point is dead on. What is the value of knowledge? If he gives you just 1 idea and you eventually add $1k to your build price with that idea, hasn't this investment earned an enormous return. I certainly think it has.

I just don't know why some people begrudge others the right to earn an income from the knowledge that they have worked for decades to acquire.

I am grateful for Ervin and others who care to share their knowledge. No matter how long I do this I will owe an immense gratitude for those who have come before us and have helped light the way.

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 Post subject: Re: Somogyi Books
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 12:33 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:57 pm
Posts: 780
Location: Austin, Texas
+∞

for anybody who has spent the money on the Mayes DVD's, these books only represent a slightly larger investment...

compared to the cost of current day college texts, these books are cheap...

and think of it this way, how many violin builders would give a part of their body for manuscripts by Antonio Stradivari?

Ervin is a really nice guy who takes the time to converse with unknowns and from what I can tell is truly interested in passing on his legacy...he is getting older and is most likely in that stage of life where he regrets not having children (the way people generally create a legacy....i.e. some sort of meaning to their life)...his legacy is his intimate knowledge of lutherie which he, from what I can gather, learned the hard way (trial and error)...I have a great amount of respect for that as that is how I've learned woodworking over the years...

I would have had no problem paying his original thought of price of $350 for both volumes...IMHO his knowledge is priceless and I'm just happy he (unlike Stradivari) is taking the time to pass it on...


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 Post subject: Re: Somogyi Books
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 12:33 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I actually hadn't seen any "begrudging" in the thread so far...in fact, I thought the statements were quite respectful. idunno

Sounds definitely like a worthwhile investment to me.

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Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com


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 Post subject: Re: Somogyi Books
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 12:57 pm 
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Flori F. wrote:
Is this a bad time to point out that textbooks are priced the way they are because students have to buy them? Literally, they have no choice.


When you take a good college course, you need the text books that the professor specifies. This just makes good sense that to get the most out of a course, you need that.

BTW - Having gone to one of his courses, I would have loved to have a text book during the course. He had many hand outs that I have in a very full 3 ring binder.
I will own these books. At the price he is charging, I think it is a real bargain.
Ervin is a great teacher.

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 Post subject: Re: Somogyi Books
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 1:11 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:13 am
Posts: 281
Location: Los Angeles
WaddyThomson wrote:
They are also priced that way because, as books go, they are relatively low volume sellers. The market for a book of this type is pretty small. It won't make the NY Times Best Sellers list. The price has to be pretty high to recoup the costs of publishing. Text books are also changed frequently, so every year there is a different publication.

I hope I'm not starting an argument, but I don't think your logic holds up as far as the academic market goes. Science textbooks tend to sell in much higher volume than books written for the study of the humanities or social sciences. Yet those science textbooks, which are selling in higher volume, cost up to 3 times as much as a book written for the social sciences - even books in hardcover, with pretty pictures. And generally speaking (and I speak as someone who spent 8 years teaching in academia), you need the books to pass the course, not just to get the most out of it.

I think that science textbooks cost more because specific science (or math) classes tend to be required both for graduation from American Universities and for entry into lucrative fields. In the social sciences, it seems almost any old class will satisfy the University's requirements. Therefore there aren't as many students taking each class (explaining the lower textbook sales) and students aren't as willing to shell out $150 for a textbook. One, they can just take a different class with a $40 textbook. And two, "Political Ethics" isn't required for them to get into law school.

As for the Somogyi books...Personally, I admire Somogyi's work and wish him the greatest success. I feel the same way about everyone who earns their living making instruments (I'm not one of them).

At the same time, I find this talk of Somogyi "not doing it for the money" a bit incongruous. Isn't this description from the email an attempt to sell a product?
"These books will be in hard cover, printed on good quality paper.
Volume 1 has a lovely 32-page color photograph section (most of the
photos and figures in both volumes will be in black and white), and
both have beautifully designed dust jackets, full lists of sources and
resources, bibliographies, glossaries, and indices."

The paper is "good quality" the photograph section "lovely," the dust jackets "beautifully designed." What is that but an attempt to describe to someone how nice the product will be and to justify the price tag? It also indicates (to me, at least) that Somogyi feels the price needs justification. Speaking of the price, at its current level Somogyi only needs to sell 120 copies (both volumes) to recoup 30k.

I think the problem (or my problem?) with the price is that it's totally out of joint with the rest of the books available on lutherie. And it seems that Somogyi could have easily recouped his costs while keeping the books more affordable, say half the current price: $125 for both books. Selling 240 copies (not a ton), would still yield 30k.

So maybe Somogyi does want to make money off this. And maybe he determined that $250 for both books would yield the highest return for his work. There's nothing wrong with that, right? And there's no way to put a value on knowledge, after all... Except that there is. We do it all the time. Saying "if I buy these books for $250 and I raise my prices, they're worth it" puts a value on knowledge. There's nothing wrong with that either.

Ultimately, I'm not bothered by Somogyi's desire to make money off his book. I'm not even bothered by the idea of shelling out $250 for two books (and those aren't the collectible volumes, by the way). I'm bothered by the choice he made in pricing his book. Pricing his books as high as he has means that they will be purchased by professional luthiers and people like his customers (folks with lots of disposable income...rich hobbyists?). The high price also means that libraries won't purchase them.

All this means (to me, at least) that the books and the knowledge in them won't be available to anyone who isn't either a pro or rich. The books and his knowledge will remain exclusive. That, unfortunately, contradicts any claim that this is about sharing knowledge...which means it's all about making money after all and maybe a desire to become live on in text (paging Mr. Kundera)...just like all books. :shock: Still, I don't mind that, I just mind the exclusivity.

Of course, some day when I have too much money, I'll buy the books. [uncle] Maybe I'll donate my copy to the UCLA library. :twisted:

Just my 2 cents...


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 Post subject: Re: Somogyi Books
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 1:22 pm 
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Flori F, have you ever met Ervin?

Sit and have coffee with him and you will walk away a better builder.


Lets stop trying to put a dollar value on his work. It is after all - his work. He can charge what ever he wants. The market will tell us/him whether or not its worth it.

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 Post subject: Re: Somogyi Books
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 1:22 pm 
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OK. So don't buy one. Problem solved and everyone can be happy.

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 Post subject: Re: Somogyi Books
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 1:44 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:13 am
Posts: 281
Location: Los Angeles
Lance Kragenbrink wrote:
Flori F, have you ever met Ervin?

Sit and have coffee with him and you will walk away a better builder.


Lets stop trying to put a dollar value on his work. It is after all - his work. He can charge what ever he wants. The market will tell us/him whether or not its worth it.

Lance,

I don't doubt it. But last I checked, he was the one putting a dollar value on his work. A fact which I said, over and over, I didn't begrudge.

Again, here's what I said bothered me: That in choosing the price for his books, Somogyi also chose to make them an exclusive product that won't be available to anyone who's not a pro or rich. It won't be purchased by libraries - too pricey.

So far I haven't seen anyone in this thread say anything impolite and disrespectful. Personally, I think there's more to discuss here than "let the market determine it." Though that is a valid way to approach the issue.

In all honesty, I think a bit of engaged, polite discussion (debate, even) would do nothing but improve the OLF. It seems to have vanished recently.

Best,

Flori


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 Post subject: Re: Somogyi Books
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 1:46 pm 
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Koa
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Flori....sounds like in your years of academia you built up quite a distaste for the over inflated, monopolized, cost of text books...good for you!...I could go on and on about that subject, with some very exacting stories from 20 odd years ago re: my experiences as a student at U.C.S.C.

Ervin's works are not required reading....the only monopoly is that he is the sole owner of the rights to his works and can do what he wants....in this day and age of wacked out copyright laws and such his desire to make some sort of return on his books should not be an issue...what is wrong with wanting to have some sort of continuing return on his investment (lots of time spent trying to figure out how to put to words the concepts that float through his head)?...the time spent pondering what he might have left out...the time spent editing and condensing the words so that the reader doesn't get lost, or worse bored...etc...writing of the sort he is releasing is both an art and a serious form of labor...labor=time....

$250 as a cost passed onto customers??? say what???? wow, spread over 10 guitars that's a $25/instrument cost increase...oh my GOD...he's driving the whole economy bankrupt!!!...get a life d00d, and maybe take a course or 2 in economics...a master grade set of many tonewoods costs more than that....do you consider his knowledge worth less?....do you not consider him a master at his trade?

you should be spending your time on being sickened by modern economics and the obvious downfall it has produced....sheeshus....past administration's members getting 100K/hour for a speech, and you're complaining about an American Master (ever watch those PBS shows on Masters?) recouping his hard spent investment of time....

argument is relative...as JJ has in his sig:
"An argument is a sequence of statements aimed at demonstrating the truth of an assertion."


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 Post subject: Re: Somogyi Books
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 1:55 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Flori F. wrote:
At the same time, I find this talk of Somogyi "not doing it for the money" a bit incongruous. Isn't this description from the email an attempt to sell a product?
"These books will be in hard cover, printed on good quality paper.
Volume 1 has a lovely 32-page color photograph section (most of the
photos and figures in both volumes will be in black and white), and
both have beautifully designed dust jackets, full lists of sources and
resources, bibliographies, glossaries, and indices."

The paper is "good quality" the photograph section "lovely," the dust jackets "beautifully designed." What is that but an attempt to describe to someone how nice the product will be and to justify the price tag? It also indicates (to me, at least) that Somogyi feels the price needs justification. Speaking of the price, at its current level Somogyi only needs to sell 120 copies (both volumes) to recoup 30k.



Everyone who has spent some time with Ervin knows that he LOVES books. He is really passionate abot good litterature. I think that he is just proud to tell people that the printing is really nice... (he is not the printer).

I also think this is a bargain. Ill buy them, and would have at double the price.


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