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I've had a few people express interest in having me do an oil finish on the neck. I'm not real familiar with the different types of oil finishes and am wondering what is the best choice for necks. I'm looking for some general info on what you guys have used and how the different finishes are applied. I'm also looking for products that are available here in Canada.

Thanks

Josh

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Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
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House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com

The common oil finishes are Oil varnishes rather than a non-drying oil like Linseed or Tung oil...
Not sure what you can get there in Canada, but Tru-oil and Behlen's Rock Hard are the 2 most popular.

One caution -- Oil varnishes typically are quite a bit darker than a "Natural" Lacquer or Shellac or waterborne finish... Many varnishes appear yellow or orangey... Tru-oil has a brown color.... You may have to fool around with stains and/or tints to get it right.... Even then, Varnish has a different look than Lacquer that is hard to describe...

Personally, I use Behlen's Rock hard varnish on the whole body of the instrument as well as the neck... Overall, I really like the finish, though it takes a LOT longer to do than Lacquer....

Thanks

John

I love "Tru-oil" neck finishes. You can't get an easier finish. Easy to apply, great feel and more durable than shellac. Generally you just wipe on, leave it for a short while, and wipe off excess. Do a few coats and use fine steel wool for a wonderful satin look. You can also do a glossier version, but I haven't tried that yet.

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"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck

+1 for oil neck finishes. I've done several personal guitars with Danish Oil....about 10 applications over a 2 week period. It retains a clean and low friction surface so far after 3 years. I recently lightly rubbed it with 600 grit and slapped on another 2-3 coats to rejuvenate the original feel...something easily expected could be done by a customer.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Tru-Oil is not a true oil finish. It is actually a polymerized linseed oil that dries and forms a film similar to varnish. It is much more protective than something like tung oil, which can be considered a good representative of an "oil finish".

I've used Tru-Oil on several guitars. One caveat, don't use it over a Z-poxy pore fill. It's great at first but gets fuzzy after a month or two and keeps doing it even after smoothed out. Some sort of chemical reaction. There have been threads on this that should be in the archives. I've used it over a conventional oil based pore fill and it's fine. I like the feel.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Josh-
I've used 'Danish oil' on a couple of cherry necks and liked the results. Behr brand from HomeDepot applied more-or-less as directed on the can- good soak first, wiping off excess well, then repeated applications wet sanding the oil with 320 or 400 (or fine scotchbrite), with a few days curing between sessions. Sunlight and good ventilation help to speed up the cure.
I'd be a bit hesitant using oil finish on a softer/open pored neck wood like mahogany, but others have had success. Terence's hints about fillers sounds like something we should all pay attention to if using oil.
I've got a can of Tru-oil which I mail-ordered from a sporting goods/ gun superstore in Alberta (Edmonton (?)), but haven't used it yet. Send me a PM if you can't find Tru oil and just need a smallish quantity.

Cheers
John

I use two coats of Watco Danish oil on all of my ukuleles as a base to brin out the grain of the wood. I have used tru-oil and I have used urethane on top as a hard surface with no problems. My first guitar has just Danish oil and it looks "nice".

Bob

Thanks guys,

This has given me some good starting points to work from. I've read in other threads about the potential problems of using an epoxy filler under some of the oils. So if epoxy isn't a good choice for filler, what do you use?

Josh

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Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
https://www.facebook.com/canadianluthiersupply?ref=hl
House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com

There's also Polymerized Tung Oil that you can find easily. I haven't tried for a neck, but I finished an electric body with this. Many many thin coats on 2-3 weeks, with sanding sometime, if you see bubble or anything sticked on the finish. Final sanded with 2000 grit. Then applied a last really thin coat, and let it like this. Nice semi-gloss, natural look, smooth surface.

I've played with it the last 6 months, and there's no sweat marks or discoloration at the armrest or the ribrest.

I'd definitively try it on a neck.

Francis

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Francis Richer, Montréal
Les Guitares F&M Guitars

Josh -

Ditto on the Tru-oil, easy to do and I love the result, on the neck as well as the rest. I used the Tru-oil filler (neck only), did several coats first - looks like a heavier oil, for lack of a better term. Then 6-8 coats of Tru-oil wiped on. There does seem to be a bit more build than with Watco or other oil finishes.

Steve

You might also consider Minwax Wipe-on Poly....a polyurethane.

The feel of it on mahogany is slippery like Tru-Oil but I expect it's more durable and it's quite clear. Tru-oil is nicer on the nose and skin but both are easy, wiped on finsihes.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

Josh,

I've used TruOil over just about every type of pore filler. The only one that will give you trouble is epoxy. All will be fine until the RH goes up and then every pore will be a fuzzy little dot.
I agree with Stuart, Minwax Satin Wipe On Poly makes for a real nice finish on a neck. It's also ridicously easy to apply.

Steve

Stuart do you use the satin or glossy Minwax Wipe-on Poly?

Thanks,
Joe

Josh,

I have used tru-oil and liked it but had a number of drying problems over certain woods, especialy some macassar ebony and cocobolo. It looked like it was beading up. I have been using waterlox since and have not had any of those issues. I have stopped pore filling the neck as I like the look of oil better with the pores but when I was the waterlox was fine over WEST systems epoxy. It can be a rub on finish just like tru-oil although I find the waterlox a little less forgiving. It will show witness lines if you sand too much between coats but I apply them as thin as possible and do a couple more and it is fine. There are a couple different sheens available, I mostly stick with the red labeled one, the original/sealer. The gloss(green label) is thicker and, for me, harder to apply evenly in a thin coat but it builds faster. There is a matte one I have not tried. Good luck with whatever you choose.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Thanks for the reminder on that Burton.
This holds true for a lot of oil based finishes including polyurethane. If I recall correctly these woods have antioxidents in them and prevent the oil based finish from drying. I use a coat of Zinser SealCoat on rosewoods and Macassr Ebony to prevent this.

Steve

"Oil finish" is a super broad term, encomapssing almost any oil or oil containing substance that can be slathered on wood, including all oil-based varnishes ("Varnish" itself being, technically, an even broader term basically meaning anything used to put a finish on wood, though most commonly we're talking about oil varnishes...) A friend of mine long ago "refinished" a worn Fender lacquer finish on his guitar neck with used motor oil - and loved it.

I think most Tung oil and Tung oil based finishes these days use polymerized Tung oil, unless you specially buy the raw uncooked stuff. Linseed oil can also be polymerized, but is commonly not when you buy "Linseed Oil". This is usually raw with metallic driers added. When applied it will form a film and partially polymerize over time. Polymerized Tung and Linseed oils are the base for most oil varnishes and oil finishes. Stick with polymerized oils.

I think the point of an oil finsih on a guitar neck is the ultra silky "baby's butt" satin finish that is so pleasing to touch, and makes for a "fast" neck feel. The old rule of thumb for an oil finish schedule is recursive: a coat every 10 minutes for an hour, every hour for a day, every day for a week, every week for a month, every month for year, every year forever. In practice the important thing is on first application to keep the surface flooded with oil for at least half an hour. This means monitoring and applying more oil on the patches that soak it in and look dry. After that I wipe it down and leave it for several hours or overnight (never leave wet oil on the surface this long though or it will make a sticky mess). More coats can be applied over subsequent days. These coats willl soak in less and less. Wipe on with a rag, leave for while, wipe off excess before it gets too sticky. There's no hard line as to when it's "done", there's a lot of feel involved - I've never done two oil finishes just the same way. The oil keeps doing its thing and drying for days before it really seems dry, weeks or months before its really cured.

I would really consider leaving the pores open with no filler. I think it's in keeping with the character of a oil finish and really makes the fast neck feel. Applying the oil by rubbing in with fine sandpaper makes an oil/dust slurry that will partially fill the pores but also really makes the tactile feel of the finish something special.

My favorite brand of oil finish is Waterlox. Stays liquid/buttery while working but then cures up quite fast. Daly's Seafin is nice too, cures slower. The idea with an oil is deep penetration and slow drying. Tru Oil to me is on the border of Varnish. It penetrates somewhat, but dries fast and can be made to build a nice film. Penofin is the opposite: thin and very deeply penetrating. I've done a process where I use Penofin as the initial flood-on, then let it dry for a few days before switching to a thicker oil or varnish, or let dry thoroughly and then on to sprayed lacquer.

Oil is the most romantic finish, and I sometimes lament that its deep penetration makes it unsuitable for the body of an acoustic guitar.

I hope this has been entertaining if not informative

Peace,
Sanaka

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...imagine there were no hypothetical situations...

I use the gloss because you can use 0000 steel wool to flatten it if you like....but you can't polish the satin. Nor will the gloss poly actually create a super gloss finish on pore filled mahogany until you take some compound to it.

As an aside...when you run your hand to the back of a Tru-Oil finished neck (no pore fill)....and then quickly change directions, you still get a tiny little "grab" as you momentarily stop...as you would on a smooth nitro finish. Less grab than with smooth nitro but it's still there. You don't get nearly that same effect with the wipe on gloss poly and I expect this would be even better using the satin. Makes for a fast neck.

There is a trick to applying the poly. If you sand the bare wood too fine, the poly will not lay down smooth, and subsequent coats will look worse and worse as they go down. Using no finer than 240 on bare wood, and then scuff sanding between coats with 240, you can build up 10-15 coats in a few days and then sand smooth with finer grits and polish out with compound. Mind you, you won't easily be able to replicate a polished nitro finish but you can get pretty close and it hides scratches well.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

Thanks guys,

This gives me lots to go on. I've found a supplier not to far away that has the Waterlox products. And I'll check sporting goods stores to see about the Tru oil. And I guess I'll try a hardware store for some danish oil or Wipe on Poly.

Josh

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Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
https://www.facebook.com/canadianluthiersupply?ref=hl
House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com

For what it's worth, my experience with min-wax wipe-on polyurethane on a guitar neck has not been good. Surprisingly (to me anyway), it does not stand up to heavy use and the neck starts to feel rough as the finish wears away. Despite the fact that Mario had posted this advice, I went ahead and tried it anyway and, sure enough, the guitar is coming back to me to have the neck re-finished. Perhaps I did something wrong in it application, but I won't use it again on necks.

Again based on personal experience, I would also say the same about KTM-9.

So far, what has worked for me has been Tru-Oil and French polished shellac.

Pat

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There are three kinds of people:

Those that make things happen,
those that watch things happen,
and those that wondered what happened.

One more vote for non-pore fill and Danish oil. I have used "Watco Teak Oil" on both Spanish cedar and mahogany on my classicals with open pores and met with nothing but praise (and sales) from customers.

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http://coneryguitars.com

Kill your television!

As has been noted before, there seems to be confusion about oil finishes and oil varnishes.
Waterlox original is an oil varnish, tung oil based, but a long oil (spar) varnish nevertheless. Tru-oil is not technically a varnish, but for all intent and purpose, its polymerised linseed oil component makes it behave like an oil varnish, more or less. It is soft. Minwax Wipe-on is a polyurethane finish, it could be called a varnish since it cures by polymerisation. I am not sure there is any oil in it.
OTOH Danish oil, tung oil, linseed oil are oil finishes, but not varnishes. They also cure by polymerisation, although very slowly, but the difference with a varnish is that beyond the solvent, there are no other components like resins or gums to build a thick and hard(er) finish. An oil finish on a neck may feel great for a while, but it wears quickly and grime tends to accumulate in the pores. It seems OK for electric instruments, but the level of acceptance for steel-string guitars is rather low I would think.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Indeed. Exacerbated by the fact that there's no hard distinction between them. It's a big sliding scale of the proprtion of oil to other resins. What we keep calling "Oil Finishes" like Watco and (IMO) Waterlox have more oil vs. other harder resins. Some have only oil. An interesting one is a brand called Tried and True. This is a highly refined polymerized Linseed oil which is not even cut with a carrier solvent. I haven't used it, but have read good reports.

When you say:

I assume you mean that it's varnish which has (more) gums or resins, whereas these are absent (or much reduced) in an "oil finish". I guess we start calling it Varnish when it can (and has been formulated to) more easily build a durable film - making an "on the wood" versus "in the wood" finish. This inevitably means a lower ratio of oil to other resins.

An absolute gem of a book I think every woodworker should have is: Brightwork. It is oriented on boats, but conveys a deep understanding of wood finishing, and is the quintessential treatise on Varnish.

Peace,
Sanaka

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...imagine there were no hypothetical situations...

Thanks again to everyone for all the tips. It has been very helpful. And I do understand what some of you have said in regards to the difference between a true oil finish and an oil varnish.

Pat, based on what you have experienced (backed by Mario's advice) I will pass on the Poly.

Josh

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Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
https://www.facebook.com/canadianluthiersupply?ref=hl
House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com