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So dude walks into your shop with say a 0-17 1930s Martin hog in A1 condition and says
"I want you to cut a hole in it and stick in one of them there aluminum cones
so I can slide around and sound like Robert Johnson."

What you say to the dude?

What do you do?

Do you respect that piece of American Heritage sitting there on your bench and decline?

Or do you grab his money and order one of them cheap cones off of ebay?

Hmmm....

Now what if the guitar buddy brought in wasn't Martin but lets say an original, a one only Howard Klepper or a Michael Dale Payne special or any other respected one off builder. Hmmm...what then?




Icu
Duh
Padma


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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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How much did you say this cat is willing to pay?

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"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins

If someone asked me to remove the kerfing from one of Howard's guitars, I would probably do that.

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

I'd tell him that Robert Johnson never even used a National.

Same answer for both situations. No thanks, that's not my specialty.

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"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Yo Bro,

Put some mediums on the Martin. Tune it to your favourite slide tuning. Don your trusty thumb and finger picks and slide and let him hear how kickin' of a blues guitar he has. While your whaling away on your favourite rendition of Walking blues explain to him how Robert Johnson didn't need no stinking cone and neither do you. If that doesn't work offer to trade him his guitar, plus some cash of course, and you'll build him a shiny new one.

Oh, and a little late in responding but the shiny one(not my forehead) in the avitar is a National "O". No history. Only a 1996 but has great mojo.

Cheerio,
Danny

I'd explain the value in these things and that if that dobro sound is what he is going for, then, to get one of those things, not do it half-assed with something not designed for the purpose.

Like all things, you apply a cost/benefit analysis to it, and if the costs and benefits are thoroughly understood, it all becomes clear.

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"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

I wouldn't butcher the Martin, but I don't need the money from that job to buy my next meal.

If someone wanted me to alter one of Howard's or Michael's guitars, or any guitar built by a one man shop I'd discuss it with the builder (if I could get in touch with them), and then decide what to do.

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[Steve Martin voice]Good one![/Steve Martin voice]

Just tell him to meet you at the crossroads

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Great answer, but if they are trying to butcher a great instrument, they have no soul left to sell, and we already know where they are going in the afterlife.
Rob

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That's easy - if it was a Martin I wouldn't touch it and I would kindly show the dude the door....

If it was a Payne or a Klepper well then these make great holes......



Seriously I have so very much respect for instruments now there is no way that I could ever do anything like that.

Great thread Padma!

Duh, I would not convert any guitar that does a good job of being a guitar; factory or otherwise.

That being said do you know those old thick maple plywood Kay classicals, great mahogany wide neck with ebonized maple fingerboard? Well there it sat in a pile of stuff at a yard sale looking sad with its broken bridge and $3.00 price tag.

On its way home with me it started speaking to me. He said "hey look they played a cruel joke on me", I have a reso soul yet they tried to make me a classical so I can barely sing because of that I have been treated as if I am worthless."

So we discussed things for a while and took a few days to think things over(after all we are talking surgery) and decided to move ahead. Loud and proud of his spider bridge is he now.

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

Yeah, but you could just blow it out with a bit of air.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Chuckle!

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Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

Wouldn't do the modifications to the Martin given it's historical value and with respect to Howard's or Michael's guitar mods...I would tell the customer to get in touch with them as they know those instruments best. I don't need any bad karma...nor do I want to be "that guy".

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Jamie M

Took a nap too soon after eating, strange images,

was ready to say no to the guy with a Payne but Michael had drawn him plans...

was ready to lecture the guy with a Klepper about Fine Guitars and the ethics of working on them but Howard with a sense of humor had named it Kerfing Madness and it was built out of particle board...

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

I had a client ask me to gut a 1750's original Chippendale furniture piece so he could install a TV in it. You can imagine how I felt (I don't even watch TV). After some time of bantering with him about historical value and ethics, he said that if I wouldn't, he had someone else who would. He just wanted ME to do it. He purchased the piece for $250,000.00 and said that his kids hated it. When he and his wife died it would just sit in some storage locker somewhere and he might as well get some use out of it. I said I would look at it for him. I ended up figuring out how to remove the pertinent parts without damage by backing out some straight head screws and labeling everything for
future replacement. He wanted me to scab on lots of pieces of plywood in order to hold the TV structurally but I talked him into me building an entire box that slipped into the opening (distressed and color matched). I attached it into the upper section of the piece through the existing screw holes and the TV attached to it. There was already a small piece of wood missing in the back that the cords could pass through. I felt, in the end that it was better that he did come to me rather than have someone else just roll over and do what he wanted. The piece would have been irrepairably damaged. In the end, this piece can be restored to it's original condition and no one will know. I hope this happens some day.

Padma, your situation, I'm afraid is a little different so here's my suggestion: Plead with him to build a new guitar for him - one that is a perfect replica of what he wants rather than destroying a national treasure. If that doesn't work you could always suggest that he have metal cones installed into his ears instead of the guitar. Thinks about it......

Blessings,

Randolph

That was pretty much what happened with the redneck reso I posted on in Reso Forum , It was However a Old Kay that wasnt worth much . I did do as he asked and the results were good . Go and read that and you will see why its called REDNECK reso . Its good for a laugh, but the tone and sound were suprisingly good . He took it to a friend who plays reso , and he said he was surprised how well it sounded for the way it was done. SOOOOOOOOO I took his money !!!

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The Padma,
I am unclear; is this an actual scenario with an 0-17 or just a 'what-if' situation to provoke thoughts and comments?

Speaking in just a 'what-if' situation, what are the ethics involved had someone come to your shop with a 30's 0-17 ( with a good title/proof of ownership) wanting to sell it and offered it to you for $300.00?
Should you pay him and shut up or should you educate him as to what the guitar may be worth?

regards,
jack

Jack, Your unclear....dude you talking to Duh Padma and you saying you unclear, come on man, the 60's were real good to me.

To the rest of you, thank you for reveling your selves and speaking your truths as to your take on ethics and integrity regarding our labours in this craft.


Now here be Duh Padmas take on the topic and the situation that spawned the topic.


Some one bring me an off the line special...I'll do what ever mods they wish.
I don't care if its a Martin or a Gretch or a Fender or Gibson ...as
long as its not over 50 years old as at that point they are becoming classed as "antiques"...just like me.

Some one walks in with a one only, hand made instrument wanting mods...I will suggest he take it to the luthier dude who made it. I ain't gonna touch it, well I might fondle and caress the strings a bit.

If I find a note like this on the inside.....



ain't no way me removing that plate. It is this note that me place on the inside of builds that me install a tone plate on that sparked this topic.

Other than restoration or repairs, to a one only instrument or antiques, I draw a line.

No mater how "right" the customer is.

Me like to think of self as a luthier, not a mercenary available for a price.

Now me may be your "Unofficial Forum Fool" however...

I firmly believe our community of up and coming luthiers
would wish to be guided down the garden path of our craft
by moral and upstanding individuals
who hold ethics
as their
sharpest
tool.

Don't get me wrong here, me not sitting in judgment and fully understand the old line....
"dudes gotta due what he gotta do to eat."



Icu

Padma



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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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He: "Would you sleep once with a perfect stranger for $1,000,000?"
She: "I suppose I would"
He: "Would you spend the weekend with me at a motel for $20?"
She: "No!!! What do you take me for?!"
He: "We've already determined that; now we're just haggling over the price."

That sounds like an old Shel Silverstein joke from 1960's Playboy, Alan

Bob