Official Luthiers Forum!

You have to set the CNC up, as well, in much the same way (work location as well as tool compensation).

Loading a piece and pushing the tool is no more skilled than loading the piece and pushing the button. I can design a jig to replicate -any- operation I perform on the CNC. Pushing a router to and fro inside any of them wouldn't require any more skill than starting the machine, just more work.

Anything a CNC can do can be made into unskilled work through jig design. Therefore, any work that can be replaced by a CNC is equivalent to jig operation, and jig operation is unskilled. Using a suboptimal jig can require skill, and doing the same process jig-free can certainly require a lot, but I'm going to assume no reasonable person would use a bad jig on purpose nor forgo the use of a good one when available.

_________________
Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

At the risk of adding more fuel to the fire, surely the issue should be more about the final quality? There are some aspects that simply cannnopt be made (yet) by machine - the thing that makes the difference between a superbly built 'Manufactured' Guitar one that his given personal attention... the time that is taken on those things that might add 5-10% to the overall quality of the tone - the tap tuning, the subtle shavings and the experience of listening to that top before its glued on - the selection of woods etc to achieve a specific tone?

Simply put, the time taken on those things is often not possible in the factory.CNC and modern techniques are great for certain tasks and can achieve an accuracy and consistency that would be difficult to do by hand (fuel added here) - but those items that seperate the finest of handcrafted instruments from the best factory guitars is simply that personal touch - teh unique voicing that an individual builder is able to impart on teh instrument...surely?

Ok...
So... Here's a Devil's Advocate sort of proposition...

Say a well known Luthier's most popular model is a "Pre-War D-28" -- and he "Hand makes" this faithfully and accurately from tracings and measurements from originals...

Now Martin steps in and makes their own "Exact Replica" of a Pre-War D-28 on their factory assembly line...

and it just so happens that the Martin Model and the Luthiers model are exactly identical in Fit/Finish, Tone, Volume, and Playability... that Both have so accurately and faithfully reproduced the 1936 D-28... that they are inseparable except for the Label and Headstock inlay.... just that 1 comes off of an assembly line and the other comes out of a 1-man shop.

What now? Which one is really better?

I think things along this line are actually fairly common... because many customers really want some faithful reproduction of some old and well regarded instrument (Make it sound like a Pre-War D-28 or like a 1928 L-0 or like Torres La Leona or like Segovia's Ramirez!), rather than a "New" expression of the Luthier's art with its own individual voice

Thanks

John

No idea which one is really better...but Martin will be able to charge $12,000 for that kind of guitar, whereas most luthiers would probably consider themselves very lucky to get $6,000.

http://www.elderly.com/new_instruments/items/D28MUS1941.htm

Well, the pre-war Martin guitars were factory made by any standard…
Their Authentic series are built in a separate shop by a team of luthiers, comparable to a production shop like SCGC, Bourgeois and others. Still, it is kind of an assembly line.

Anybody else sees the irony of hand builders trying to replicate factory instruments?

_________________
Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

The problem with this question is the understanding that production line assembly does not allow for the individual attention details that hand crafted allows.

If a production line pays that kind of attention to detail on each individual instrument then they are no longer a production line they become more kin to the arts and craft movement communes of the early 1900s.

So to me this scenario is based on an invalid proposition to begin with. The whole intent of a production line is to cut the process down to the shortest possible time frame while maintaining a reasonable degree of quality with the use of a labor less expensive than journeymen craftsmen. (Now I know there are well experienced builders working on Martins production line. However they are the exception not standard rule)

The principle be hind hand crafted is to produce the finest instrument possible with in the skill range of the individual builder

It is kind of like asking: What if a pig could fly? Which would be the better flyer, a pig or a bird? If possible the y both fly but the possibility of the senario being possible is not pratical.

Full agreement. The important differences, as Trevor has pointed out as well, are things that aren't done by machines! Voicing, material selection, and knowing -what- to cut are what matters, not method.

_________________
Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

My 2 cents is about 1/1000 the weight as most of yours, but here it is:

To me, "handmade" means that hand skills and power were required to operate the tools used in the construction process of the object. in other words - no additional power sources (electricity) used.

This leaves several areas of vagueness - jigs, for instance, seem to limit 'skills required' by a vastly varying amount.

I also recognize the HUGE HUGE HUGE hypocrisy in using this definition pridefully when I am working with wood that I order from LMI or others; trees cut with chainsaws, milled with power saws, transported by trucks, shipped overseas in diesel tankers, ordered online with this computer, payed for by a credit card, delivered by truck, and shaped in a shop that has electric lighting and heating.

I'm young enough to romanticize about solely using hand tools for all my woodworking. But, my Dad tells me that will change.