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I have heard differing opinions on this. Some people say having a fat neck makes a guitar sound better, some say it doesn't. What is your opinion and reasoning?

You need to make the neck work for the client. Most will not like a fat neck.
To me - This is a none issue.
I also doubt that it would have much of an effect.

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I read a reference to "experiments" in which weights were clamped to the headstock, and the sound was then louder/better. If the fatter neck is better due to stiffness and/or weight, these can be contollled other ways by using denser wood, installing more carbon rods, etc.

There may be something going on with the Sustain and impedance mismatch... A heavier, stiffer neck might push more energy back into the soundbox.... Electric guitar guys swear that the Neck makes a huge difference in the sound... but you don't hear too much about it in Acoustic guitars (Which almost always use Mahogany necks)

Or it may make things worse...

I tried clamping some heavy C-clamps on the headstock of 2 of my home made guitars to see whether it made a difference or not.... Both were worse for it! They sound "Wooshy", weird, and generally terrible with those clamps on the headstock... so I took them back off and they went back to sounding good again. Go figure.

I think the best thing to do is make a guitar with 2 bolt on necks... 1 Fat and stiff and the other "Normal" or Thinner or whatever... It would help point out what is going on...

Thanks

John

I have not gotten to read all the Kasha bracing stuff yet, but I believe that part of his conclusions were that preventing vibration in the neck has relevance, but I think he did it with a bigger harder neck block and neck material.

As a guitar player, I have 2 main guitars, I play the one with the comfortable (thinner) neck more then the one with the better sound.
Rob

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I know that some bass players add more mass to the headstock for sound improvement.More mass in the neck seems to bring out a better sound for me. I have noticed that on most of my builds.The ones with the thicker neck carve seem to sound the best in my opinion.But i like a fat sounding guitar myself.

A fatter neck might help the sound in some cases, and hurt in other cases, or it might make no difference at all. How's that for a definitive answer?

Seriously, we usually talk about the sound of the guitar being influenced by the resonant modes of the top, or the back, or the air in the body, but the neck can play a part too. There's a resonance of the entire guitar, where it vibrates like a xylophone bar in it's fundamental mode, with stationary points near the nut, and across the lower bout at about the wide point. This is often called the 'neck mode' because the neck bends a lot when the guitar vibrates like this, but it's really the whole instrument shaking.

Normally, this mode is well below the pitch of the 'main air' resonance, which is the lowest mode that can effectively produce sound. However, if the neck is particularly stiff, and the headstock is light, the 'neck mode' resonance can be as high as the 'main air' pitch, and then the two can work together. The result is that the normal 'main air' peak in the spectrum of the guitar is spread out a bit, showing up as a pair of lower peaks with a dip in between. The 'total available horsepower' in that range is a bit greater, and, because you don't have one tall peak, the sound is more 'even', with less chance of a 'wolf' note. Often guitars that have this sort of couple will have a particularly 'dark' or 'rich' low end.

It's usually pretty easy to hear the 'neck mode'. Hold the guitar up by pinching the neck between your thumb and finger loosely up around the nut. Let the guitar hang freely, and be sure to damp the strings with you finger. Tap on the back of the headstock with a finger tip, and listen with your ear as close as possible to the headstock surface. You should hear a low, pitched sound, often around C=65.4 Hz, well below the low E string pitch.

It is possible for neck vibration to 'steal' energy from the strings, but I think there's a lot less of that than most people believe, at least on acoustics. For this to happen really effectively the pitch of the note played would have to closely match that of a resonance of the whole guitar, like the 'neck mode', and you'd have to be fretting that note near an 'antinode' of the resonance: one of the places where it moves the most. The 'neck mode' I've talked about is the lowest pitched resonance of a whole family of modes, but the next higher one is usually 'way up; nearer 300 Hz, iirc. The pitches of the higher modes varies a lot.

On a solid body the neck is lot bigger part of the thing, in a sense. Also, they're trying to do just about the opposite of what we acoustic makers are trying to do: we want the bridge to move, they want it to stand still. I have noticed on some solid bodies that the node lines for the lower three or so resonant modes (the ones that are low enough in pitch to be fundamentals of played notes) all tend to be near the bridge. This means that, unless you happen to hit an antinode up on the neck someplace, you're unlikely to be able to drive any 'wood' resonance very well, and the body won't be stealing energy from the strings. I imagine the node locations, and the pitch of the various modes, varies a fair amount depending on how stiff the neck is, and how heavy the headstock and body are, so the neck could make quite a difference in the sound.

Electric basses are a good example of what _not_ to do, IMO. They put the bridge right down at the lower end of the body, which is an antinode for _every_ resonance of the stick. There are bound to be frequencies where the bridge is moving, stealing energy from the strings, and that's why solid body bases are prone to 'dead notes'. That bridge location makes sense from a lot of standpoints, but not from that of sound.

To me, a bigger issue for the thickness of the neck than that of tone, is simple playability. Thin necks are just too hard to play! I can't put adequate pressure on the strings, my hand feels cramped. Just as too fat a neck does not enhance playability, so does too thin a neck.

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Ya got me Todd.
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Thanks for all the input! I really appreciate all the opinions and factoids!

Depends on the player. My current client has a smaller hand and really can't play even on a normal neck. He must have an extra thin one.

I clamped weight to a couple of my guitars headstocks and while the increase in sustain could be heard, the tone was degraded, not too different from how adding a weight to the bridge sounds.

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Gee Keith...me have heard a lot of things too.

But to tell you the truth...fat necks only sound gooder on a full moon night in a bikers bar but then only if your drunk and believe what "some people say" in stead of building a few and checking it out for yourself....oh and by the way, would you please be so kind as to illuminate this old fool on just what constitutes "sounds better?" That's something me been trying to figure out ever since me built me first and that was 47 years ago.


blessings
the
Padma

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Being a bit cheeky i think this:



Sounds better then this:



It's amazing how sound can be so ummmm subjective

I think there is more objectivity in sound then some people understand. People wouldn't spend thousands of £££ if it were so airy fairy dance naked by the moonlight. I don't think there is much superstition to guitar making. I think it is very scientific, what isn't is people's perception of sound. Proof is in how differently people describe the sound of any given guitar.

Sure there are some variations of sound in the building process that can't be controlled completely, but i think there are far more rules to the sound they make then people lead you to believe. This is where experimental building comes in handy. But at the end of the day, it is more about matching a sound to the description of sound that the end user hears and wants. That takes good communication, verifying what language they use to what sounds you hear and making it to that spec and tweak it till it is a match.

In my humble uneducated opinion.

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Disappointment is an empty box full of expectation

Very interesting thread.

Alan, your posts are always so packed with relevant information and wisdom. Thanks again.

Pat

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As a newbie i have to agree with this. And wonder if you are going to write a book. I enjoy your posts very much. You are very thoughtful and non-judgmental in your replies and know your stuff.

Tanks so much you always give me a lot to think about and adds plenty ideas of things to try and verify in my journal of experiments i'm keeping.

One wants to be thoughtful in this journey of discovery instead of just banging a guitar together for ***** and giggles.

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Disappointment is an empty box full of expectation

"One wants to be thoughtful in this journey of discovery instead of just banging a guitar together for ***** and giggles." I guess this depends on your motivation to begin building guitars in the first place.Some people are artists and others are engineers,some right brained and others left-brained. Having seen some of the Padmas' creations,I marvel at his skill and creativity and enjoy his light-hearted input.Having said that, I fall in the left-brain camp and enjoy reading Al Carruths' thoughtful contributions.

*wonders just where this leaves us No brainers *

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"*wonders just where this leaves us No brainers *" No need to worry WW, as Joseph Conrad once said "just pass the bottle".

Yo, woodsworth dude,

Regarding your humble opinion, ~ thank you.

Ya know some say its best to, leave the mind in its natural state of humbleness and amazement instead of being disappointed in empty expectations of those, like myself, who would lead us down the garden path of distraction by spewing forth dangerous cognition's and babbleing verbosity, while om~itting the usual BS* associated with this our ancient craft, close the shop door and start building. Now after you have build a few (preferably more than two) perhaps give us a post on how you are coming along sub~jective~ate~ing sound in your empty box.

and you thought my other comment was a bit cheeky.

Everybody understands Mickie Mouse, and some understand Alan Carruth, and well me never understood nuthen till me learned to consult me own pineal gland.

But ya, that Alan Carruth dude sure knows his stuff.

Lighten up dude, we all gonna die, then what?




ICU,
blessings
the
Padma


*BS: belief systems

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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