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Hey Burton. I run into that difficulty often I responded before reading the subsequent posts--sorry

That sounds to me like a description of a guitar that might be projecting better than it is "enveloping". You can't hear yourself play so much, but the listeners out front of the guitar might hear it very well.

If you want to hear yourself better, you could cut a side sound port.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Hey, wouldn't it be better to try to understand in technical terms and then relate this to other's words? OTOH it kinda takes the mystique out of it and is perhaps not as much fun , I am not really an advocate of either way although I try to understand how the ear and brain perceives an instrument.

Not that we're any better but the violinmakers have a slight advantage in this regard because of its similarity on size and structure. There are even some extensive acoustical studies to describe the sound of a violin. Not all agree, of course but it does help. Dunwald's numbers are a way of separating the sound of a violin into 5 iirc segments on the spectrum. And from that the relative power in that area describes in words what attributes the violin has. Dark, nasal, projecting, etc.

Regarding the acoustic guitar, things get much more complicated because not all are the same shape, strings length, bracing, etc. Although I understood the question from Hesh immediately, the question itself leads to an imprecise answer. I like it though hesh . Is it fair to ask us to decide between a Smallman type guitar and a Somogyi?

To get slightly off topic though here is a good way to describe a guitar in my opinion, you agree?
First state the shape and overall idea, OM, 00, Dread, fingerstyle 000 with cutaway, Small classical, concert classical etc. Next describe its attributes in that context such as:
" ...an 00 sized parlor guitar but not particularly nasally".
" A dreadnaught with more sparkle"
"A concert classical with warmth yet decent projection"
" A small classical with a soft, warm voice"

To prove any of this to be true, some acoustic testing could shed more light. What makes a guitar project? What is "enveloping"? Maybe I am pushing a string and just need to enjoy the sound

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Ken

Good post Ken!

I need to come see you the next time I am in TC - I was born there ya know....

I guess... along with what others here have said....

It depends on what the Guitar is supposed to be for....

My Mental Model of the Sole Purpose of a Dreadnaught is to be Loud and Project... To get that sound out past the Banjos and out into the crowd... To do this, it needs to Project!

Contrast this against my Mental Model for a Small body parlor/Recording guitar... In my mind... it should be fairly "Enveloping" -- Loud but controllable near the player... Nicely behaving in a Mic... Works well when your Church friends are in the living room practicing songs for Sunday... Because the folks on either side of you need Music so they don't sing so badly off key... Etc...

Think of sitting at the Dinner Table and singing Happy Birthday to your 7 year old daughter.... You bring out the Big Gun Bluegrass Dread and the guitar deafens her friends singing across the table from you... but Mom.. standing behind you can't really hear it... The kids across the table can't even hear themselves sing because it is so loud.... The "Enveloping" guitar would be preferred in this situation... Everyone gets to hear "Gutiar" and it doesn't blow out the Birthday candles before the Birthday Girl does!

Then... Take that wonderful Parlor/Recording guitar out to the Friday Night Bluegrass Jam down out in back of the Barn... The crowd can't hear your guitar.... It doesn't make it out past the Band... even though the Fiddle player next to you may get an ear full....

So.. You gotta have the right tool for the job at hand...

Which is why I like both..

Thanks

John

Wow Todd. I believe you are right about this. I thought I had an understanding of this entire enveloping vs projecting idea, but I may have it all complete backwards after all. Your interpretation matches what Burton has said above too (which I didn't understand at all until I read your reply to me):


I thought that my thicker than normal top would have "softened" the volume, which would equate to more "enveloping". But in reality it's only softer to the player, not the audience.

I have so much to learn! Thanks to all for this very enlightening thread!

Hesh, come on up, you are welcome any time.

Projection is the quality that allows an instrument to stand out above other sounds. An opera singer must project, whereas a choir vocalist should should fit in to the ensemble without being singled out by the listener.

enveloping ??

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Ken

By “projection” I think of having the instrument produce a sound (a specific note) that can be carried as far as reasonably possible with as little energy as possible. Projection could then be measured via a scale. Example 1 unit on the projection scale could indicate that with 1 unit of energy the instrument produced a specific note (sound) that could be detected at 10 feet and so on up the projection scale. Each instrument could then be rated on the projection scale given the unit of energy used, the specific note produced and the distance at which it was heard.

By nature of it construction the guitar is “directional”. Sound is louder in one direction then in another. Walk around a guitar as it is played and the directional attribute of the instrument becomes apparent. By removing the player and striking a note on the guitar the same will hold true. If you could plot the boundary distant at which the sound/note is heard as you moved about the source this would represent in my mind the “envelope”.

So are we saying that to “envelope” the player we must product enough sound directionally towards the player’s sensory items, for lack of a better word, ears, head and chest etc, thereby, projecting/moving the envelope in the player’s direction?

I believe all acoustic instruments have an inherent “envelope” and that we as builders need to work on the “projection” element in order to push/mold the boundaries of the envelope to satisfy both the player and the instrument’s purpose.

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Michael Lloyd

“I was born to ignorance, yes, and lesser poverties ...
I was born to privilege that I did not see ... I didn’t know it, but my way was paved” – John Gorka

I hope Hesh doesn't mind how this thread is rambling. I'll ramble a bit more here...

Sound can do weird things. Why some sounds seem to "project", or carry over distances and through other sounds, while others seem to hover more around their source and die out at a short distance, is a fascinating thing to me. It seems like one of those things that's so complex as to pretty much defy scientific explanation. I remember one time I was at a bar where an old time string band was playing (one of my very favorite kinds of music, by the way). I was sitting at a table quite a distance from the band, which was playing unamplified. The band sat in a circle facing each other, as old time string bands often do, and the guitar player had his back to me. He was playing a fairly small, old Gibson guitar. With a fiddle, a banjo, and an upright bass all wailing and thumping away, and all the sounds of a bar full of people eating, drinking, and talking, I could hear that guitar very clearly. The player was doing a lot of walking melodic bass lines, not just "boom-chuck", and I could hear every note he played, and how nicely they blended with the melodies of the fiddle and banjo and the deeper booming bass lines of the upright bass. I was really struck by that, because often the sound of the guitar is almost subliminal in the mix of a band like this jamming at full tilt, especially if the player has his back to you. It was as though the sound of that guitar was magically delivered to my ear through a jungle of obstacles. Was it room acoustics? Was it the tonal quality of that guitar? Was it the player's technique (I suspect that did have a lot to do with it)?

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I can only add what i have found so far from my own experiences building guitars in that balance and power is controlled through the voiceing of the top and back.And tone is controlled mainly by design,shape, and the different wood qualities used weather they be different species or different trees within the same species.What i try to do as a luthier is to get the most out of what i have to work with in all these respects to get the results i expect.