Official Luthiers Forum!

Clamp questions
-Are there any cheaper substitutes for a cam clamp or do I just have to suck it up and build/buy them?
-Cumpiano suggests 8 cam clamps of various sizes, in your experience do you need more or less (if taking a minimalist approach)?
-Outside of c-clamps, long reach clamps and cams, are there any clamps that you've needed?

Straight Edge
-Do I really need to get a high precision 36' steel straight edge for body work? Can I get by with a 6" and an 18" steel precision for the neck work and use a sturdy aluminum straight edge (1/16th gradings) for body measurements and design?

Workbench
-Do any of you get by using a saw horse fashioned work bench? I don't have a dedicated workshop and am starting this hobby out of my apartment.

(Starting my first guitar btw!)

The cam clamps are nice, especially nice when you need the wider throat (distance from the bar to the clamping face). I also use a lot of the Irwin 6" mini Quick Grip clamps. Now is a good time of year to get those as the home improvement stores, such as Home Depot and Lowes, often have a set of 4 on sale for about $20. Normal price is about $20 for 2 clamps.

I already had a nice wide 24" Starrett rule made for a large square that I use for the precision straight edge, so haven't looked into other alternatives.

I haven't used a saw horse work bench for the guitars, but don't see why it work for most things. I'm not sure I would attach a vise to it...I would be a little paranoid that I would knock the bench part off of the saw horses.

Cam Clamps - Don't skimp here, get good ones. The more the better, 8 minimum. These are the best I've found and they offer discounts when you buy 10.
http://usaclamp.com/CamClampPage.aspx
24" straight edge is plenty. Mine's a Starrett, but there are less expensive options.
I've got a vintage '80s Black and Decker Workmate that's a great fold up workstation. I haven't looked at the new ones, but I recall that they've cheapened them quite a bit in recent years (particle board, etc). Here's one from Highland Hardware that's a similar design.
http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/fold ... bench.aspx
Get a decent vise too. I really like the Parrot vise for guitar making.

-C

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Freeborn Guitars
and home of BeauGuard©

Luke-
Rather than buying from a 'shopping list', think through all the steps you will be doing (not clear whether you will be building steel-string or classical), and how many clamps and what kind of clamps you will need to do each job.
I built a bunch of cam clamps (not a big job and good practice anyway ) when I started guitar building as a hobby, but got rid of them years ago. However, I use a go-bar deck now, and if you are building 'on the kitchen table' or equivalent you probably will not have a go-bar deck. You can also improvise brace-gluing jigs with sticks and bolts. For bridge gluing, you can use bolts through the pin holes (on SS), etc - cam clamps are only one option. I always found cam clamps to be pretty ineffective, but perhaps my home-builts were not very good quality

You'll need a bunch of clothespins with elastics or one of the other alternatives for gluing linings. If you can find some cheap 2-3" C-clamps, these are sometimes handy in addition to 6-8 larger C-clamps (for gluing down headstock veneers, fingerboards, etc). And you will need clamps to hold things in place when you are working on them, aside from the WorkMate. I'd actually suggest thinking about a 'base cabinet' style workbench if you have room- or a rugged kitchen table that can use a 'character' top.

Not in my opinion. For fret troubleshooting, a triangular 'fret rocker' is useful.

Sure. I doubt that Torres, and even Hauser had more than that. You do need some sort of calipers for measuring, but that's another issue.
Don't be intimidated about not having a large workspace. Good guitars have been built in bathrooms!
I'd suggest getting some 'older-style' guitar building books if you haven't done so already, since they tend to emphasize hand tool work and may give you some ideas on simpler ways to build. Sometimes you can get the impression that even hobby builders all have extensive workshops/power tool selection/jigs, but this is not true.
You've found a great resource here at OLF. Although it's not particularly easy to use the OLF search engine, you will find tons of info in the archives here and also at MIMF.
Cheers
John

It is hard to beat the cost and versatility of cam clamps. There are other clamps that will work but typically they tend to cost more, weigh more, (which can cause unforeseen material damage) and have far less reach and versatility of use. They are really fairly simple and inexpensive to make. So my answer is yes but really not better choices.



You can find commercial grade aluminum straight edges that will get the job done but it is a good idea to confirm their flatness before you invest in them. That said like any tool, the higher quality you by the longer it will last you. You really do need a scale with at least 1/64 increments on some tasks. Always remember you manufacturing tolerance will be approximately twice the accuracy of the incremental divisions of your scale. If you have a symmetrical component that you need to layout based on its center line and you can only measure to accurately to 1/16” and the accuracy of the scale 1/16” division is + or – 1/64” (which is typical of cheap scales) then you over all manufacturing tolerance of that symmetrical component will be 1/16” + or – 1/32” then each time you ad another component to the assembly you stack these tolerances and soon from one end of you assembly to the other you can be as much off as + or – 1/8” pretty darn quick. So in my opinion investing is a precision scale is critical!



You really need a work surface that is stable when loading is applied. For instance say you are carving braces with a chisel. If the work surface can move easy then you run a great risk of gouging the top or braces you have so carefully prepared.

Every corner you cut in the name of expense has major trade offs. Some trade offs worse than others. When deciding on tools and fixture. It is useful to do a realistic TEA (tool efficiency amylases) to determine if the cheap tool could possibly cost you more than the savings due to job efficiency, material damage or bodily inquiry.

Luke-
After re-reading Michael's comments, I realize that perhaps I misunderstood your question. Rules/scales and straightedges are different things to me.
Precision straight edge- my understanding of this is an ungraduated straight-edge.http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=56676&cat=1,240,45313 . Helpful for measuring neck angle, but do you need accuracy to 0.001 inch for this? Also, 36" is pretty long. You didn't state your budget, so cost may not be an issue.
You do need some decent scales/rules for measuring. Something like these http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32568&cat=1,43513 might do the trick.
For doing layout, checking centerline, etc, a pair of dividers is a handy tool and often more accurate than transferring measurements from a rule.
There is more than one way of doing any operation (eg finding saddle position) so don't look for total agreement when you ask questions!

Cheers
John

John I do not think you misunderstood I add the scale part because I know a lot use long scales as their straight edges so I threw that in as you had already covered precision straight edges pretty well.

Luke-
Another 'two-cents worth' from me on the topic of rules/scales- If you are just starting out, get in the habit of working in mm. It makes calculations a lot easier, though you will need to have 'conversion tables' handy for translation. I'm still working on my personal 'metric conversion' here........

John

LV has a set of matte finsih steel rules for about 20-22 bucks .. 6/12/18/24 .. I have two sets, 3 of the 18s .. they are indespensable in my shop .. and plenty accurate enough for pretty much everything except seeing if something is truly flat, like a FB .. but I can sight stuff that is hard to see with a rule. I have a 24 inch aluminum straight edge from a Cdn outfit called Busy Bee .. about 20 bucks on sale . I use that sometimes for the fretboard to bridge lie .. but the 18 from LV is close enough and gets used alot too.

I cant see 64ths .. get a dial micrometer and you can easily measure and see to +/- .001.

One of the handiest tools in my shop is the SM action gauge - it only gets used to check action about 20 percent of the time ... the rest its used to set router bit height for inlaying, rosettes etc ... nice that it has graduations in tens of thou .. most shell is 50 thou .. how conveniant - try measuring/setting the router to that on a ruler ...

cam clamps .. never use them .. built a go bar deck instead

C-clamps ... I have lots, 4 and 6 inch, bar clamps are nice, for electric tops - I made a lot of furniture years ago, and have plenty.

bench .. hmmm .. I built an electric guitar body on top of a wet bar in a basement apt ... before I had any tools to speak of .. borrowed the router ... way way back I remember rattle can spraying an electric body metallic blue off a 5th floor balcony !!!!
Can you make a saw horse bench work .. for a while, sure ... you can use it to make a better one ...

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Hartville tool has a new straitedge/ ruler in 12", 24"& 36". I've been looking at the 36" so I'll have one that'll make it all the way to the bridge. The 24" is $32.99 & the 36" is $62.99. The 24" one would work well and thats a good price for just a straitedge let alone for a good ruler. It says accuracy is .001 on the 24" and .0015 on the 36". They have a beveled edge with1/64th on one edge.I have a 24" one from woodpeckers that I bought 3 years ago that cost twice that much. www.hartville tool.com

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It's this new idea from recent decades that everyone gets a participation award. - MUX

Think I'll go with the 24" straight edge from hartville, good value for both a straight edge that's accurate to the thousandth of an inch and a rule.

As for the work bench, think I'm gonna go with this http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=p ... lpage=none , saw one in the store, very sturdy, although it may be a little short, comes up to my waist, I'm sure I can platform it up.

As for clamps, I bought a fair amount of c-clamps and just need to get the motivation to make the cam clamps from one of the many plans on the internet or just buy em in bulk.

F-clamps. Lots of them. 8" with 4" throat. $4.99 at toolshop bargtain bin. I but 3 or 4 every time I visit.

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Greg
http://garibaldiinstruments.com/

In my mind, more clamps are better than less... If I had 40 clamps... I would not have too many!

I do find the Cam clamps to be super handy for Guitar duty -- it is just too easy to crush things with those metal screw clamps....

Start with what Cumpiano recommends.... It is basically the minimum set.

Then....
A "Straight edge" is not a "Ruler" or "Scale" -- they are very different things.....

A "Straight edge" is a big metal bar with ground edges... The edges are "Straight" and true.... You use it for checking flatness... They usually don't have graduations for measuring distances....

A 36" "Straight Edge" runs ~$200.00

A good 36" steel ruler runs ~$50.00... I have one with standard 1/64ths on 1 side and 1/100ths on the other side... makes measuring easier.

Thanks

John