Official Luthiers Forum!

Hey all...

Got a new dilemma... What to do? what to do?

My little small body guitar has been a HUGE hit locally.
I have received several offers to buy it... including the fellow using it to record his current CD.

But... my dilemma...

Build another one that sounds at least as good!

This was my #1 full build.. I blithely stumbled through the build process... fueled by what little I was able to learn through re-voicing my retopped Esteban and other little experiments.... and happily ignorant of what I didn't know...

But... now I know a little more... and what I know is that it came out sounding really good... but I can't put my fingers on which decisions made it sound good and which were just incidental... if that makes sense.. like would a 95* asymmetrical X brace make it sound better/more full than a standard 90* X or even a standard 95* X? Did stopping the tone bar short of the X help.. or not? or... does what I am hearing in its sound more to do with being a true flat top? I know for sure that being absolutely meticulous with the setup helps a huge amount... and there will be no compromise there.... but otherwise?

Now, I am trying to pour back through my sparse notes to see what I did that I might be able to put my finger on.... Why is it as good as it is? Unfortunately, I will have to go measuring inside the guitar to answer many of my questions... which means I have to go and get it back in the middle of his CD recording sessions!

This puts a little pressure on this current build.. I gotta do a good job!

Overall, I know this is a really good problem to have....

Thanks

John

Crank em and sell em. Build another, let the one you like least go. Use this one as a demo. But build before you offer em up.

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Here is what a Parlor Guitar is for!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEa8PkjO6_I

That's great John!
Always good to get some recognition for work well done. As you say, now all you have to do is do it again.

Joe

Simple, really:
Get that great guitar returned to you, then rip the back off.
Study everything you did.
Photograph it. Measure it.
Take copious notes.
Put it back together as a wiser man!

And good luck doing it all again just like the first time....

Perhaps a good starting point, other than the foolishness above, is to contact the vendor--if this is a possibility--to see if they have any other top wood from that same log, or even billet. Who knows? Bruce Harvie once went scouring over the east side of Orcas Island for me, looking for a felled tree that had yielded superior top wood. He was asked nicely, and he obliged.

From time to time, you'll get ahold of a great top, which will simply make a great guitar. Those tops are hard to mess up. It's possible, of course. But perhaps you had the good fortune of working with some uber spruce.

But don't be afraid to jump in there. To make such a praiseworthy first guitar could indicate that there's music in your hands.

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Yeah... I think I will get it back in the middle of a CD recording session so I can cut the back off.... "This will be done in a Jiffy..." as I whip out the Router!

Getting more of that wood is a definite possibility.

It is from Mario (Shane's neighbor)... and he labels each tree with a "Unique" name... I do have a couple more tops from the same tree... and the "Oakie" Ditson GC I am currently building is getting a sister top.

I guess the dilemma is now... people are paying attention to see if I can build something that sounds good again. I am pretty sure I can make another one that sounds good... Who knows.. it may be better or it may be worse... but I am sure it will have its own voice.

Thanks

John

John,

I know that you won't cut the back off!! So try a webcam. I bought one that has a goose neck arm and I just place a light inside and move the camera arond and take pics. Use a small ruler to take some measurements and then just do what you do. I am sure that it will turn out great! As for wood from the same tree, I think that there is too much variability even within a block, let a lone a the entire tree, to go at that blind. You will still need to use your senses. Having said that though, the trees around are fairly similar. I haven't found one yet that was "floppy", so it is mostly cosmetic and ensuring that the structure of that particular tree is maximized by proper processing.

Good luck on the new journey!

Shane

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Canada

If you don't have a webcam a small digital camera in closeup mode works well. I use an under-cabinet light with about 8 LEDs I got from Home Depot instead of the flash (at close range the flash tends to wash things out - especially the ruler). I've also used folded up masking tape to stick a 6" stainless ruler next to things I wanted to measure. Tedious but it'll get the job done.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I have several pics of the inside of the guitar before closing the box.
I posted several here for bracing critiques a couple months back.

The pix aren't so much the problem as the detailed notes containing useful information -- like what did the braced top sound like when I bonked it.. how compliant did I leave things..

Then, as I said... there are several things that I don't know whether or not they matter or are just incidental... For instance:

The squatty body shape... The body came out a little wider and shorter than plan, both by ~1/2"
That might do something...



The sound hole ended up about 1/4" larger than plan.. That would probably do something.. It is certainly easier to get my hand into a 3.8" soundhole than a 3 1/2" soundhole...

It also has a 95* asymmetrical X because I cut one of my X legs a little too short.... It was going to be splayed out a bit... but it ended up both splayed and slightly turned to get the legs into the linings at the top. (The plan for this small body calls for about an 85* X)
That might also do something



Thanks

John

Well, you almost know that opening the X angle changed the sound. The larger hole probably did as well. Not sure how much the slightly different body shape/size made.

That's the problem when you first start building.....one doesn't know if a sound can be reproduced......and you haven't experimented enough to know how changes affect the sound etc.

If you are going to sell at this early stage, maybe sell only completed guitars that a customer can play and handle and hear before making a decision. You don't want to disappoint a customer and they don't want to be disappointed. This will protect your positive reputation. Later when you have more experience you can accept custom builds.

By the way, if you made a good sounding guitar on the early builds, you probably have a good feel for this and I'm betting you can do it again......just may take some time to repeat a particular sound and feel.

Kudos!

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

I agree with Darryl. Just too much going on with that build to pin down what might contribute to the tone. The final result was a combination of all the above mentioned components (to some measurable or immeasurable degree) but, furthermore, the particular woods used, craftsmanship and joinery, what you had for supper, the phase of the moon...follow what I'm saying?

At this point I wouldn't stress about trying to make an exact copy of your original, myself. Just go out and try to make the best guitar you can and learn from the next one, too. It will take years of building and a hefty database to pull from (and I have a long way to get there myself...) to be able to nail down how those changes affect the outcome. And, furthermore, the lesson even then will be how the changes affect the outcome given "your" particular building style. Another builder may not see the exact same results.

So move forward, build, learn, and then build another one. I would, myself, purposely try "not" to build the next one with all those irregularities (which were, admittedly, mistakes) Not to say that "mistakes" can't forge the way into a new discovery - it happens all the time - but you should concentrate on being able to make a plan and correctly execute that plan. I mean what happens if you build the next one identical and it's a dog? (It happens...) Then what have you learned? Or build the next one "correctly" and it's a better or worse guitar? Does that mean one or the other designs is flawed? Of course not. The major success story behind this particular guitar could simply be a spectacular piece of spruce that was used for the top. You just don't know.

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Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

I agree with Wes - too much going on to perfectly duplicate the original. Seems to me (and I don't know much) that if you could duplicate your state of mind on the first one and couple it with everything you do know about the first one, you would have the greatest chance of success. I would do your best to relax and not stress over it. I think its just as possible that you will do one as good or better even if you just start in and enjoy it.

My advice is to not sell your first guitar, even if it is a great one.
You'll regret it later on IMO. Keep it as your reference for future builds.

The others have given you good advice about trying to duplicate that first one.
Keep at it!

Cheers,
Dave F.

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Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

Hey guys,

I do appreciate the feedback... Sometimes it helps to bring things back to ground again.

John

John, Congrats on your success! Don't worry about measuring all the stuff in the guitar. It won't matter now that it is built. Just use the same design, good wood, good joints, and your best craftsmanship and you well do great things. Every guitar maker has what I call the "Luthiers Thumbprint." What I mean is that no matter what bracing design you use your guitars will always have your sound no matter how radical a change you make. Measuring the properties of the woods such as strength, weight, and thickness will help you create a knowledge base and a "recipe" when you make one that knocks your socks off. The "recipe" will get you in the ballpark, but not until you've built at least 30 or 40 guitars. It takes about that many guitars before you start to know what you are doing because you need to acquire some emperical knowledge.

One of the best things I ever did to speed up the learning curve was to build a dummy guitar in which I could install a top, make, changes, then remove the top once I liked the sound and install it on the real guitar. If I screw up the top I just unclamp it from the dummy guitar and toss it out.