Official Luthiers Forum!

That's just too funny.

And thanks, I'm glad to hear the videos are of some help to some.

Yikes!!!

Actually, in my case I have a very loving fully supportive wife in this endeavor thank God. As long as I keep her in the loop I have no need to fear any compensation.

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

I've already been compensated

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

+1

Now thats funny .. I dont care who you are !!!!

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

A key point to remember is that the most important part of intonation is the player. For one thing, many many players are not really that good at tuning their guitars, and the vast majority of electronic tuners aren't sensitive enough to make a guitar sound really in tune without the help of the player's ear to do the final tweaks. For example, a good friend of mine, a great player whose musicianship I really admire, was recently playing one of my guitars. He was playing up the neck and messing with the tuning, and then commented that the intonation wasn't quite right. Now, I knew that the intonation on that guitar was very, very good. I took it from him and tuned it (by ear), gave it back, and voila - no intonation problems. I'm not meaning to knock my friend or other guitar players. It just seems that relatively few people have ever really had the ear training and the education about what the intervals in the equal tempered scale are supposed to sound like. And if you can't really tune the guitar well, you really have no basis on which to make any assessment of its intonation (other than a thorough check with a strobe tuner).

On the other hand, there are some players who can play a guitar that's not tuned well or has bad intonation, and make it sound in tune! The ability to do that to some extent will make any guitar, even one that already has very good intonation and is well in-tune, sound better. The opposite of that is players who will make any guitar intonate badly because of poor fretting technique.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Good points Todd! Another thing which could be added to that, is each player and each listener may hear somewhat differently. What may sound fine to one person, could sound flat or sharp to another. I was raised up tuning by ear and always with satisfactory results to my own hearing. Never even owned a tuner until someone gave me an old SEIKO analog about 20 years ago and it was 10 years old when they gave it to me. It produces audible tones as well as being able to hear and measure sound with an analog gauge. I call it "old faithful". I have a digital built in to my Takamine (am I allowed to say Takamine in here? ) and a clip on digital neither of which have impressed me very much at all. I will often resort to "old faithful" for the tonal aid and then finish off by ear. One thing Robbie was discussing with me yesterday, and I read this in Mike Doolin's writings as well, is the way a player addresses or frets and stretches the strings while playing, something you covered above as well.

The biggest problems I had on my problem guitar were in setup.(which BTW is no longer a problem ) The #2 string needed to be lowered at the nut, and the saddle was 1.5mm high on the Treble side and 1mm high on the bass side. (which reminds me I need to repolish my nut, and the saddle too) Once the setup was redone, voila, one awesome sounding and feeling hotrod of an SJ. Robbie explained it in a way that was able to penetrate my thick Texan skull. Now, if I can just gain a greater understanding of normal compensation, and radical compensation (my definition) for a two scale (or fanned fret) fingerboard, I'll be on my way to luthier's heaven.

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

I too am mostly ear. I make funny faces when I hear people playing any guitar that is out of tune (and they don't know it)...or when they start playing up the fret board and they don't bend the string quite far enough to actually reach the note that SHOULD come out of the guitar...they just keep on playing...and playing. I've even been sitting in the playing room at guitar center or some other place like that....listening to someone play one of the wall hangers...I'll lean over and say "Yer B string is sharp"....They'll stop playing and pluck the B string all by itself and say...really? I'll take the guitar...strum your run of the mill G chord and say..."hear that?"...(long pause)....

Some say no they don't....some say yes because they don't want to appear as though they don't know...and some say show me.

Anyway - just trying to lend another something to Todd's post.

Colin has posted some alternate methods of tuning here before but I can't find it right now. Go figure.

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There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

I would be willing to bet that you will never see an acoustic guitar that has straight frets with perfect intonation on every note. The simple fact that the bridge moves means that some notes will be thrown off pitch, and if it didn't move, you would not hear the guitar. There's also the little matter of equal temperament, which achieves the goal of allowing you to play in all keys by making all of the intervals (except the octave) a bit false. Setting intonation thus becomes an exercise in 'good enough', and that varies from one person to the next. It's just a matter of just taking your time, following a good system, and working at it until it's OK.

Thanks for your input Alan I cretainly appreciate it. I respect your knowledge and wisdom greatly. Your post stated it very much the way Robbie did yesterday when I was spending a couple of hours with him. It all boils back down to the fact that in my mind, I was turning it into something much more difficult than it really is. I got another email this morning complimenting the great sound and playability of my guitar and that is my goal for every guitar I produce. I intend to perpetually increase in that ability by learning from the pros such as yourself and the many other greats here in this forum. I owe thanks to all of you regarding the level of skill I have achieved to date.

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

Elaborating a little on what Alan said; my understanding is that the 3rd needs to be about 15 cents flat to sound right in a chord. You can get by with this on a dobro or lap steel. But if you tune your B string to sound sweet on an open G chord, it will sound awful when you play a D chord. So yes, it's impossible to get an equal tempered instrument to play perfectly in tune. It seems to me to be a set of compromises that can vary from player to player.
Walter

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Walter Lay
"It's taken me so long, but now that I know
I can see. All that I do or say, is all I ever will be"
- Billy Joe Shaver

Hi Alan,

I found this page while browsing Cumpiano's website the other day. He posts a picture of a luthier that created individual frets for each string to get the intonation just right. I imagine that the playability of this guitar was dreadful even though the intonation was perfect. The last sentence states this perfectly: "But therin lies madness".

http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Book/textbook.html#How_do_I_compensate

Hey Paul,

I brought that one up in a discussion with Robbie the other day. Talk about obsessive insanity.

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

Bill, it was very nice meeting you as well. And your guitar really does look great. I look forward to seeing it all finished up!

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Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

Thanks Mike. You and Robbie have been real confidence builders for me. I look forward to taking your inlay class when I can fit one into my schedule. I'm fair at my self taught inlay techniques but I can never get too old or experienced to learn more from someone more skilled at it than I. I might even take your electric guitar building course some day. Even though that's a little taboo for a country boy acoustician such as myself.
(is acoustician a word? ahhh... who care anyway? )

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!