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I've been thinking of ordering some Italian Spruce from Rudolf Bachmann. He seems like a knowledgable fellow, and also quite helpful. He's in the far north of Italy, almost in Austria, and in fact his spruce could nearly be called "German" spruce.
Anyone here tried his wares?
And...are there any particular import problems with shipments from Italy?

TIA for any light you can shed.

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Steve,

What is his company name...got a website? I have some of Luigi's spruce, he also is northern Italy, and was pretty nice. But only have about 8 or so sets total from two European suppliers so I don't have a large sample and am really comparing them to me own wood. Of course what is most striking is how WHITE the are. I have found in my sets that stiffness in this Italian Spruce varies more than my stuff in general, I some sets that are very stiff and a couple that are fairly floppy. Anyway, I don't know close to useless this info was so I better get to bed........!

Shane

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Canada

The 2 sets I received from him were nicely cut. One was quite dense, about like Sitka. That is the main prob with all the European suppliers I have used. About half of the tops are nice and lightweight and the others are quite heavy.

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Stay with the happy people.
--Reynolds Large

Shane, his company name is Bachmann Tonewood.
Here's a link to his company's site:
http://www.bachmann-tonewood.com

Thomas, thanks for your input. Did you specify to him what you wanted? Of course, if one of your tops was as dense as Sitka, that wouldn't hurt a steel string builder like myself so much!

Thanks guys,

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

If I may ask...were they his master grade and would you be willing to share any info on his pricing?

Steve,

I imagine you've looked over the website. He has pictures on there of himself with Hoover of Santa Cruz, Benedetto, etc. He also claims to offer outstanding quality, with the consequence that his customers are quite loyal.

Flori

p.s. If anyone needs translation from German, I'd be happy to help any time. Of course, I imagine most of the Germanic tonewood sellers have acquired a decent grasp of English due to the "Ami" market.

Hi Steve. I bought 2 mastrgrade sets from http://www.germanspruce.com/ and they were wery nice, stiff and white as snow. He cut them and do all the work by himself, He is working together with Matthias Dammann who helps inspcct each top for tone. He replies fast and my tops were at my door just a few days after I ordered them.
and he has good prices and gives exre good prices to US buyers, as of the dollar ios low.
as for density of the tops, mine are light as a feather. I compared them to my sitka mastergrade I got from alaskaspecialtywoods and its like half its weigh almost.

Lars.

I can't remember what I paid for the tops as it was a few years ago. It was a good value based on what Euro spruce was selling for at the supply houses. I asked him to send me his top grade, which is most likely master. There are some characters stamped on the tops but I would have to break down a pile to see what they are. I have found that Rivolta, Florinet and Bachmann sell nice quality wood. As I said, about 50% of it is way too heavy for a classical guitar.
I have not tried Fuchs, but Lars' experience with their lightweight tops might be the tipping point for me to try them. I saw a nice guitar at a GFA made from good looking spruce from Kölbl, another source I intend to try at some point. They can be found here: http://www.tonewood-koelbl.at/

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Stay with the happy people.
--Reynolds Large

What I got myself from Rivolta was always light, less than 400Kg/m3. What is the highest density you would use for a classical if I may ask.

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Build log

Thanks for the replies, gents.

Flori, Rudolf has an English version of his site available. Well, it's pretty good English. Click the Union Jack at top of the page, and there you go.

Lars, thanks for the new site. I envy you Europeans your access to such bounties. However, we have a few things over here that could make our European brethren envious, so I suppose it all balances out.

Thomas, don't tear down the pile just for me. I trust your memory.
Thanks for the extra link.

Alexandru, I assume you're asking your question of TRein or Flori or Lars? I've no experience building classicals. However, it's been reported that John Gilbert used Sitka on his classicals, and used it to great advantage. Interesting subject in its own right.

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Oops, i should have mentioned, I asked TRein. So far I used spruce from 360 (very light Italian) to 420 (Lutz) and they worked both well. I am currently building with an Austrian top of again 420 which is ultra stiff, I just can't wait finishing this guitar. It will probably end up at less than 2mm thick all over.
It seems the average Sitka is about 450 Kg/m3 and I guess I wouldn't use that for a classical too.

As for Rudi Fuchs, I actually ordered a top from him a couple days ago too, and he said it is 350 Kg/m3. That is indeed light (as Lars mentioned) I just can't wait to get my paws on it see how stiff it is.

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Build log

Alexandru,
I don't figure out lbs/per cubic foot. The amount of wood present in a matched set is very small compared to a cubic foot, as I am sure you know. If you extrapolate up to lbs/cubic foot, or a metric equivalent, suddenly a gram or two becomes a very big number.
The system I employ is simple and powerful. I figure out the volume of a soundboard half in cubic millimeters by multiplying the thickness (down to the .1mm) by the length and width in mm. I then divide the weight in grams into the volumetric total to get what I call the "weight factor", which is probably another way of figuring the density. I am just a bit too dense to figure out the specific gravity in a proper fashion. I have found many European spruce tops are in the 2200 to 2400 weight factor range. I get excited if I get some in the 2600 range. Lutz and Engelmann are usually around 2500 to 2600. Some very light cedar gets to 3000 and above.

_________________
Stay with the happy people.
--Reynolds Large

I measure exactly the same, but divide the other way around: weight the plank (grams) then divide by volume (m3) and I get a result like for example 0.0042356 etc, which means the density is 423 Kg/m3 or 0.42 grams/cm3.

I also started to measure the deflection. I was amazed that a small compliance delta say 1mm from 7 to 6 can be felt much more clearly when flexing the top in hand.

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Build log

I used Sitka tops on my last two classicals...sounds okay.

Gilbert used Sitka early on in his building career and then switched entirely to cedar.

_________________
Stay with the happy people.
--Reynolds Large

I've had outstanding experience with Rivolta, but this was mainly for archtop stuff. They source most of their wood in the Tyrolean region, the mountains generally between Austria and Italy. A lot of good Italian Spruce comes from there. In fact I think old Stradivari sourced his wood from those parts too.
-John

I've only gotten Italian spruce from Rivolta, mostly from their 'E' category. Some of it has a bit more runout than I like to see, otherwise it is very nice.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Steve I've used a fair number of European spruce tops from all of the major producing countries, Italy, Switzerland, Germany and Austria, and to be honest like most wood there is as much variation within a country's production as there is between countries. Good Euro spruce is good Euro spruce, no matter. If I mixed all of them up without having them marked, I wouldn't be able to pick the Italian out.

The latest 'Italian' I used was from Luigi, and was on my Walnut OM that 'was' my main DADGad guitar, but can I tell it from my last 'German' top? No. I think it's as much down to the cutter as the country.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Thanks for the continued info, guys.
Bachmann is not only a tone wood supplier, but a luthier as well.
Which means:
1) He should know a good spruce top from an average one;
2) He just might keep all the good stuff for his own use!

He hailed me down--out of the blue--and I'm just wondering whether some top $$ should go his way.
Seems like an awfully nice guy.

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com