Official Luthiers Forum!

Justin, do you have a heat gun? If not you can find them pretty cheap. That's what I use on my pipe as a heat source.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

As with anything, there are different opinions on this, and that's fine. I don't want to argue it into the ground, but I do really want to challenge what seems to be the common assumption that one of the first things a beginner needs to do is build (or buy) a bending machine. I want to strongly encourage people to learn to bend by hand, and then decide later if using a bending machine will make your guitar building more efficient (or more fun or whatever).

One thing I can say with certainty: once you get good at bending by hand, your results will be every bit as good as using a machine - if anything they will be better, because you can easily correct any springback or whatever. You can make your sides and bindings fit your mold PERFECTLY, and you can't get any better than that. Using a bending machine is only more reliable or more accurate if you haven't yet gotten good at bending by hand.

Personally, I'm not very fast at bending by hand yet, but I've seen people do it very fast (and with perfect results) - definitely rivaling the time it takes to do it on a machine, when you take every step of the process into consideration.

I also disagree with the belief that you are more likely to break sides doing it by hand. On this forum, we often hear about people breaking or otherwise ruining sides using a bending machine. When you do it by hand, you are in direct touch with the wood. You can much more easily feel, hear, smell, and see how hot it's getting, and feel it give way to the heat. Sure, when you're first learning, you might break some pieces (I haven't yet; I've only managed to do that on a bending machine!), but once you get it, you won't break any unless you're not paying attention.

Certain figured woods may be better done on a machine, but even that, I think, is questionable. Again, I think it comes down to skill and technique. There are plenty of excellent builders who bend everything by hand, and don't bat an eye at highly figured woods. When I am in doubt, I use Supersoft, and go ahead and bend it by hand. When I get better at it, though, I doubt I'll ever bother with the Supersoft.

Learning to bend by hand will seem difficult at first, but not as difficult as learning to play guitar! I spent countless hours over a period of years trying to get my left hand fingers to move nimbly between various chords. Bending sides is far easier than that.

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

...please, show me the posts. Because in all honesty, what sticks with me most are the posts by folks who haven't broken sides in years after moving to bending machines vs. hand bending. Yes, there are very skilled hand benders, but it's more work to master (most smaller builders/amateurs will never bend enough sides to get good enough to rival the speed of bending with a bender) and in my personal experience it's quite a bit simpler to machine bend and touch up on a pipe to get that perfect fit. No stress, no hassle. My impression is also that most hand benders tend towards traditional tastes in most respects, and don't use all that many highly figured (in the difficult to bend/weird grain sense) woods.

Either way, both methods are valid, but for a beginner, building a mold, dishes and a bender, and buying a blanket for bending, is a more reliable way to get professional looking results, and as soon as you prevent breaking a single set of sides, you've paid for whatever investment you put in. The type of bender I use isn't the Fox-type with the crank for the waist; I can feel when the wood's ready to move perfectly well (using a Doolin style bender, even more than I used to), and while the feedback's not as direct, it's certainly not absent. It isn't foolproof, but I don't find it difficult.

I think the learning curve on hand bending is longer than with the machine. I can bend by hand but I gave away my iron years ago. When you need to bend perfling and herringbone , the machine will work well but again , all techniques have a learning curve. If you are a just building a single guitar you may want to try the pipe method.
The process of bending requires the temperature to get to a point that will allow wood cells to crush , also you have to be careful how you apply the force to the bender. I used a slat so I could apply the pressure on the pipe so it was more of a pressing action. With a machine you are completing the bending process within 6-8 minutes , and you can go on to something else. Jigs are a way to create productivity and allow you to use your time for other things , or to do a process with repeatable results.
Find the technique that works for you.

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Mario P./ Grumpy uses a good set of gloves to bend his sides on a bender. He I believe preheats the slats and puts the side in and waits till the wood reaches temp. and sets the waist and hand bends the lower bout and then upper bout. He likes to feel when the side is plastic. He doesn't use a temp control and I believe leaves the blanket on for something like 5 minutes. But he also avocates learning to use a pipe as probably most do. My times may be off some what but the point is it's like hand bending if you are after the feel thing. And Mark Swanson told me he usually bends his bindings when he bends his sides which is a neat tip I think. Just put it next to the side in the package. You could debate on which is better, electric or gas pipe too.
I'm out of here I have some bindings to make and bend in my bender and touch up on my pipe if need be.

Different opinions... so be it.

I'll just say one more thing by way of encouragement to beginners: if you're getting ready to build your first guitar, get some cheap sides (StewMac sells 'em to practice on, or ask one of our sponsors for some orphans, or resaw some slices of something) and an electric bending iron (or make a simple pipe bender) and give it a try! Use some of the educational materials available on how to do it, and you might be surprised at how not-so-hard (and fun!) it is. I think most people will find that in way less time than it would take to get all the materials together to build a bender and build it (and learn to use it), they can practice hand bending and get good enough at it to bend their first sets of sides with excellent results. Many people have hand-bent their first sides successfully without even practicing first. Once you cross that hurdle, and enjoy the accompanying warm fuzzy feeling of satisfaction at having done it, then you can take another look at the question of methods without intimidation being a factor in your thinking.

By the way, I am not one of those hand tool purists at all. I use lots of machines and power tools, and more and more jigs. Still, I do stop and question some jigs, and often decide I can do something a lot faster or better by hand, even if I have to learn how to do it first. I think it's easy to get into a mindset of building jigs just to avoid learning the skills necessary to do things well without them - especially for beginners facing the daunting array of seemingly difficult and complex tasks involved in making a guitar. But if we don't want to be challenged, we should be looking for something else to do with our time! Learning the skills is more than half the fun! Anything that can be done with a jig or power tool can be done by hand, and with results that are every bit as perfect. The hand skills, in fact, give you the ability to make a more perfect guitar, even if you do a lot with machines and jigs. Not only more perfect, but more unique and more exquisite, because there are many things you can do with your hands that no jig or machine can do.

And remember that the flipside of the "reliability" and "repeatability" of jigs is inflexibility. A jig is a cookie cutter. Not a problem for a factory, but for a handbuilder, a potentially serious limitation.

I've gone on way too long here! Back to the shop!!!

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

That is a good point to use practice sets. Red oak is available to most people and will bend not unlike rosewood. Get a good feel . Sometimes you will get brackish wood that just won;t bend no matter what. I agree that you don't need a bender to start with . I , and I know RC tonewoods to bend the wood you get from us.
john

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

It's probably not the best to practice with, but you could get some Poplar at the Borg, and slice off a piece, thin it down to 2mm and bend it. That's what I did. Seemed to work fine for a first time bend.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I learned to bend on an iron and got through it, at least in the sense that I did not crack anything, OK. But even after bending 5 sets of sides on the iron it still took me a good hour to do and my results were not as consistent as what I now get with a Fox style bender and blanket.

Having a love for highly figured woods does not make bending any easier either......

I agree that both methods are very valid and I can see myself returning to the pipe for some things and I already do that.

But IMHO for someone who is new to building a bender and blanket is less risky provided that they have a method available to them that works and follow the method. I did not find bending on a pipe the first few times to be easy or stress free and I burned myself too.....

What used to take me an hour now takes me 5 minutes and my method and times are very much like what our friend Chris describes as Grumpy's methods. I don't use a thermometer either instead looking for visual and other clues that the wood is permitting itself to be assimilated..... The clamped ends of the stack start to droop, a wet finger on a slat provides a resounding sizzle sound and I may see a puff of steam and hear some sizzling also. The waist caul becomes easy to turn, but not to fast..... and the actual bending only takes me about 3 minutes once the above is all happening.

Like anything else practice makes perfect and I agree that getting some practice sides and going at it is an excellent idea. From time to time some of our fantastic sponsors will have practice sides available too.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars

Here is a simple bender that can be made from the offcuts of the building form and some scraps of kerf core and formica.

After the wood is up to temperature the waist is clamped down, then the upper and lower bouts and finally the ends. I use this form for both bending and molding sides.

Clay, I'm just wondering how your spring back is. Does the kerf core act like a heat sink?

Hi Chris,
I heat the wood, bend it, let it cool ,heat it again, let it cool again. The springback with EIR is minimal.

I'm a fan of the bending machine. With enough practice, I'm sure that I could bend a set of sides with a bending iron, but suspect that it would take quite a while before I could get the same consistent results that I can get with the bending machine.
There are many jigs and tools being used to save time and effort which are not reqally required. I ran accross an article this weekend talking about Wayne Henderson in Rugby, VA who at one time used pocket knife to do much of the work (carving braces, cutting binding channel. etc)...and he has made some mighty fine guitars. However, I'm not sure that I want to whittle out a guitar with a pocket knife. That said, I do admire those that can!

Not to be flippant, well maybe a little flippant, do any of you who are "throwing out your bending irons" want to send any my way ?
Also does anyone pre-bend their sides with a iron and finish off with the bender ?
Link

_________________
Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

Link, the opposite of what you're suggesting is actually what's often done - touching things up on a hot pipe after bending in a machine. For one thing, it would be very difficult to load the side up in the steel sheets and heat blanket, and then into the machine, once it's already bent. If you're thinking of a situation where you've bent your sides on a pipe, but have some bumps, irregularities, or areas where they're not quite fitting the mold, the solution is not to try to fix that by putting them in a bending machine. The solution is just to work it out on the pipe. As long as you don't let the wood get overly dried out or scorched (keep moistening it and/or put a wet rag over the pipe, and keep monitoring how hot it's getting), you can keep bending it back and forth until you get it right. Overbending certain areas and then bending them back is very common; in fact, some builders do this on purpose, way overbending the upper and lower bouts, and then bending them back to fit, on the theory that this reduces springback.

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Although I've only had about 4 hours of time on my Ibex I have to say that I sure can bend bindings and purf strips way faster on a Fox. Four at a time. Put them in the sandwitch plug the blanket it, wait for steam and sissel with wet finger touching the slat and bend and unplug blanket and let cool and heat up blanket for good measure and cool. Worked great for maple bindings. I have a rib rest on my build that I made one piece binding from the ends of the rib rest. That's where the pipe came into play.